Executing a hold?

[Guest blackcat79]

Hello, im new to RC but not to flight simming as you can expect using the default ATC ive never had to do half the things im asked to do now. (and getting wrong for not doing right lol).I understand and can follow the atc instructions but dont in some cases have a full if at all any understanding of some, which aslong as i get though it i dont mind.However im dreading the day i get asked to go into a hold, and would like to know if ther is an idiots guide to acheving this?Kind regardsed

[jd 57]

Hello, im new to RC but not to flight simming as you can expect using the default ATC ive never had to do half the things im asked to do now. (and getting wrong for not doing right lol).I understand and can follow the atc instructions but dont in some cases have a full if at all any understanding of some, which aslong as i get though it i dont mind.However im dreading the day i get asked to go into a hold, and would like to know if ther is an idiots guide to acheving this?Kind regardsed

i don't know if it is an idiot's guide, but i think the manual does a pretty fair job on explaining it.jd

[Guest blackcat79]

I did read the manual and think ive got it. But woundered if there was some sort of diagram. so say i was heading into Gatwick via OCK VOR and the controller tells me to hold say 40miles off OCK doing 20mile legs. SO i would just before 40miles from the VOR turn 90degrees to the Right, travel 20miles on that heading then turn 180degrees do another 20miles back. And do this until told otherwise?

[jd 57]

I did read the manual and think ive got it. But woundered if there was some sort of diagram. so say i was heading into Gatwick via OCK VOR and the controller tells me to hold say 40miles off OCK doing 20mile legs. SO i would just before 40miles from the VOR turn 90degrees to the Right, travel 20miles on that heading then turn 180degrees do another 20miles back. And do this until told otherwise?

almost. let's say your inbound radial to OCK was 180. 40 miles from ock, you would turn 180 degrees, to a new heading of 360. when you are 60 miles from ock, make another turn, 180 degrees, and you should be back on your original inbound radial of 180, and you should be about 60 miles from ock.fly inbound until you are 40 miles from ock, turn 180 degrees again. looking at a flight path display, it will look like a racetrack.jd

[jetlag 65]

almost. let's say your inbound radial to OCK was 180. 40 miles from ock, you would turn 180 degrees, to a new heading of 360. when you are 60 miles from ock, make another turn, 180 degrees, and you should be back on your original inbound radial of 180, and you should be about 60 miles from ock.fly inbound until you are 40 miles from ock, turn 180 degrees again. looking at a flight path display, it will look like a racetrack.jd

I remember a flight where I was actually vectored leg-by-leg through an entire holding racetrack, due to traffic. Am I imagining this? I am pretty sure I was under RCv4 control that day...Phil

[Guest blackcat79]

almost. let's say your inbound radial to OCK was 180. 40 miles from ock, you would turn 180 degrees, to a new heading of 360. when you are 60 miles from ock, make another turn, 180 degrees, and you should be back on your original inbound radial of 180, and you should be about 60 miles from ock.fly inbound until you are 40 miles from ock, turn 180 degrees again. looking at a flight path display, it will look like a racetrack.jd

Thanks Jd :(

[ronzie 21]

It sounds more like you might have been getting delay vectors on missing a crossing restriction.

I remember a flight where I was actually vectored leg-by-leg through an entire holding racetrack, due to traffic. Am I imagining this? I am pretty sure I was under RCv4 control that day...Phil

[jetlag 65]

It sounds more like you might have been getting delay vectors on missing a crossing restriction.

No, I am used to getting those as well but, that time, I was level and I remember a message about traffic congestion and vectors taking me through a racetrack, then a clearance to the next fix.. I don't think FS ATC is smart enough, so it must have been after I got RC... or I am hearing voices (please reassure me!).I was flying from Brest to CDG and was put on-hold somewhere around Evreux then eventually cleared to Pontoise.Separate subject, about crossing restrictions. Seems to me that I am sometimes given a restriction that violates MSA in the area. Is that possible and, if so, what is the solution?Thxphil

[jd 57]

I remember a flight where I was actually vectored leg-by-leg through an entire holding racetrack, due to traffic. Am I imagining this? I am pretty sure I was under RCv4 control that day...Phil

that happens if you choose vectors, or if the rc copilot has the plane. also, if the last checkpoint isn't within 5 miles of the airport, you will get vectors.jd

[Tim_Capps 479]

First of all, there are two programs I simply don't fly without: Radar Contact and Flight Keeper. I love programs that are smarter than I am and keep me on my toes. Of course, I stil get investigated after every flight. I just tell them I have no idea what they're talking about and they can talk to my lawyer. It always works for me.Holding is something I still have a couple of questions about, though. FMCs seem to be set up for holds anchored on a specific waypoint, and that's the way it looks on approach charts. You'll see the racetrack always anchored on a fix. Radar Contact seems to give you "roll yer own" holds. Is there any way to set up a Radar Contact hold on your typical Boeing FMC that you would find on Wilco 737PIC, Captain Sim 757, LDS 767? I'm have a hard time translating the hold instructions to something my FMC understands and will do. There's a hold page, but it wants to know what I'm doing in relation to that fix. Anybody have any suggestions?

[jd 57]

First of all, there are two programs I simply don't fly without: Radar Contact and Flight Keeper. I love programs that are smarter than I am and keep me on my toes. Of course, I stil get investigated after every flight. I just tell them I have no idea what they're talking about and they can talk to my lawyer. It always works for me.Holding is something I still have a couple of questions about, though. FMCs seem to be set up for holds anchored on a specific waypoint, and that's the way it looks on approach charts. You'll see the racetrack always anchored on a fix. Radar Contact seems to give you "roll yer own" holds. Is there any way to set up a Radar Contact hold on your typical Boeing FMC that you would find on Wilco 737PIC, Captain Sim 757, LDS 767? I'm have a hard time translating the hold instructions to something my FMC understands and will do. There's a hold page, but it wants to know what I'm doing in relation to that fix. Anybody have any suggestions?

i'm fmc illiterate, and i prefer it that way.fmc guru's can weigh in. rc is going to give you the inbound radial, add 180 for the outbound radial. one end of the hold is 40 miles from the last navaid on the inbound radial, the other point will depend on the leg length. on the outbound radial.jd

[Guest oldaviator]

In the real world there are three different procedures for entering a holding pattern depending on which direction you're approaching it from. The most common is probably what is called the direct entry. You are flying along an airway and when you reach the VOR that defines the airway you turn left, or right, 180

[flyerkg 62]

My only suggestion is to gather full knowledge and understanding of holding patterns and learn to execute them by hand before trying to get an FMC to do the work for you. You might not always have an FMC or have one that works, but all the instrument flying fundamentals still apply. I would not go out and purchase instrument flying material unless you are going to invest the time and money in a real world instrument rating, but there are lots of online sources that will teach you some of the things guys here are telling you. You will want to be familiar with intercepting a fix and know what method to use for entering the outbound leg on the hold. 6 Ts for hold management (Time, Turn, Throttles, Twist, Track, Talk) US Air Force training as an example:Time your outbound leg from the hold fix. Turn to the correct heading on the correct side of the fix i.e. (west of, east of the fix) this is where you need to apply the proper approach to the fix (Direct, Parallel and Teardrop) entry. Throttles or Transition, adjust to ensure you are managing your speed. Twist applies to entering the inbound course to the CDI or HSI so that on turning inbound, you have visual reference to the course you should be on during the inbound leg of the hold. Track or confirm your heading during the outbound leg of the hold and adjust for winds.Talk to ATC if required.Keith

[ConstVoid 112]

Tim,I haven't used an aircraft with a decent FMC since I moved to FSX, so this is all from memory, but what I used to do was cheat! As jd has said, RC always gives you a hold 40 nm from the last VOR on your flightplan, assuming that's within a few nm of your destination. I always used to put an extra fix into the FMC at the point RC would give you a hold. If there are no other fixes between the last VOR and the holding point this can be done fairly easily using a 'place-bearing-distance' fix based on the VOR using the reciprocal of the inbound track as the bearing. If there are other fixes less than 40 nm from the last VOR then you have to be a bit more creative with the holding fix but can still be done.Having said all that, I agree that it would be more realistic to give holds at a real waypoint on the flightplan approximately 40 nm from the destination, if there happens to be one. I think I even suggested that to jd & Doug a few years back.Ian

[Tim_Capps 479]

Thanks for the great suggestions. Radar Contact is the best.