CAT III Instructional Video

[Alpha Floor 237]

By the way, I always wanted to ask you that - why do you guys at ASA don't have altitude callouts on your 737's? 

 

I'm not a pilot, but I think the answer to that is because the airline didn't want those automatic callouts and preferred the PNF (or PM) to do them. 

 

Airlines can choose which callouts they want and which they don't want. And sometimes they can chose how they want it, for example, some aircraft will call "twenty five hundred" and other will say "radio altimeter" when they fly below 2500 AGL. As far as I know, automatic callouts are not something the FAA requires and they are not mandatory.

[rfresh737 36]

Thanks Ralph, very interesting & thanks for your time.

I predominantly fly in Australia, pilots inform me that most, if not all, approaches are cat i only. Could yourself or someone, elaborate a little more on cat i approach techniques ?

 

Thanks in advance for your time.

 

I'll make a comment but I'm sure others be will able to offer their keen insights as well.

 

I will provide two answers. One for the real world and one for us flight simmers.

 

Real world response:

 

Well, being a CAT I ILS approach, that would imply it is a manually flown ILS approach. In this case, I will be doing a FD ILS approach and using A/T to control my speed. I will make my speed adjustments from the A/T knob on the MCP vs manually pulling and pushing the throttles around directly.

 

Reviewing the STAR (Stand Terminal Arrival Route) if there is one, I would try to determine if I am going to be able to fly the standard ILS procedures as called out in the Boeing ILS Flight Crew Training Manual (FCTM). Specifically I am trying to determine if I will be able to be at flaps 5 (and at flaps 5 min maneuvering speed) when I am on my localizer intercept heading. Or, due to the kind of arrival, if things are going to get busy in a hurry, I will opt to intercept the localizer at flaps 15 with my speed set accordingly.

 

Depending on the altitude I am intercepting the localizer at and what the ILS GS intercept altitude is and its fix location, I may elect to put the gear out a little early too. Just depends.

 

At this point, I don't need to press APP on the MCP because this is not an AP flown approach (it could be with an AP disconnect at DH).

 

At localizer capture I will set HDG to the inbound course.

 

(I like to be "all in" on the MCP when I'm on my localizer intercept heading as well. By this I mean I like to be out of LNAV and VNAV and directly on the MCP in HDG sel and ALT hold. It's just my preference. It's perfectly fine to hold on to LNAV for localizer capture, I just prefer to be out of LNAV/VNAV and "all in" on the MCP only).

 

So, back to the approach...so if I hold on the gear drop, I will wait for GS alive to select flaps 15, update the A/T speed accordingly, lower the gear and arm the speed brakes.

 

At GS capture I will select flaps 25, 30 and then 40 and adjust A/T speed for each selection to bleed down to Vref + 5. I like to land at flaps 40 but you may prefer flaps 30. I will then set the missed approach altitude in the MCP altitude window and call for the landing checklist.

 

At this point I will fly down the ILS following my FD command bars and waiting for my DH point (200 feet) to decide to land or execute a miss.

 

You probably have a pretty good handle how to make a manual landing?

 

I should also say I never fly an ILS raw data (no FD) approach...for an ILS I always use the Flight Director. Some carriers forbid flying a raw data ILS.

 

My response in regards to us flight simmers:

 

Since this thread was on CAT III autolands I will say this. I fly my PMDG 737NGX on any kind of CAT ILS there is; I, II or III. It works fine. I'm not sure if that is what you were looking for in an answer.

[serviceceiling 135]

I'm not a pilot, but I think the answer to that is because the airline didn't want those automatic callouts and preferred the PNF (or PM) to do them. 

 

Airlines can choose which callouts they want and which they don't want. And sometimes they can chose how they want it, for example, some aircraft will call "twenty five hundred" and other will say "radio altimeter" when they fly below 2500 AGL. As far as I know, automatic callouts are not something the FAA requires and they are not mandatory.

 

Yes, I know that. I was just asking because I find those callouts (especially down from 50) to be very helpful for a proper flare. It increases the situational awareness and lets you keep your eyes outside as you pass the treshhold. 

[Alpha Floor 237]

I have a question to ask which I haven't been able to find an answer yet:

 

Are ALL ILS approaches either CAT I or CAT II or CAT III? Is there such thing as a "ILS" without anything else, without a CAT assigned?

 

I'm asking because I've seen many airports that have an "ILS CAT I" chart AND an "ILS" chart. The "ILS" chart has higher minimums, here an example:

 

ILS or LOC RWY 16R: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1404/00582IL16R.PDF

ILS RWY 16R (SA CAT I): http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1404/00582I16RSAC1.PDF

 

 

 

Well, being a CAT I ILS approach, that would imply it is a manually flown ILS approach. In this case, I will be doing a FD ILS approach and using A/T to control my speed. I will make my speed adjustments from the A/T knob on the MCP vs manually pulling and pushing the throttles around directly.

 

I think even among real pilots there's discrepancy to this. Some prefer to disconnect the A/T as well when handflying, that way they are really handflying and controlling the aircraft about its 4 axis. Others use the A/T to have one less thing to have to worry about. A matter of taste and personal preference I suppose (or company SOP maybe?).

 

 

Yes, I know that. I was just asking because I find those callouts (especially down from 50) to be very helpful for a proper flare. It increases the situational awareness and lets you keep your eyes outside as you pass the treshhold. 

 

Agree! Those callouts are useful in the sim! In real life you're always flying with another guy who'll be calling the heights, so that's no problem.

[rfresh737 36]

@Jamie

 

>I think even among real pilots there's discrepancy to this. Some prefer to disconnect the A/T as well

>when hand flying, that way they are really hand flying and controlling the aircraft about its 4 axis.

 

This is not a "discrepancy" issue really...it's pure preference...you're absolutely correct in that some pilots prefer to handle the throttles themselves, completely, and then there are pilots who prefer to have the A/T 'helping' them but they will still set the speeds via the MCP. Both ways are absolutely correct.

@Jamie

 

>Are ALL ILS approaches either CAT I or CAT II or CAT III?

 

No, not all ILS's are CAT I. In fact, I think you'll find most ILS approaches are not CAT I approaches.

 

If you look at the DH values of your two ILS approach examples, you'll see the 'regular' ILS has the standard DH of 200' while the CAT I ILS has a DH of 150'. These are two great examples you have provided showing exactly why one is a CAT I and the other is not.

[Spin737 102]

By the way, I always wanted to ask you that - why do you guys at ASA don't have altitude callouts on your 737's?

 

 

 

I'm not a pilot, but I think the answer to that is because the airline didn't want those automatic callouts and preferred the PNF (or PM) to do them.

 

The answer is . . . "BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE THEM ON THE -200, DAGNABBIT! THE -200 WOULD STOP ON A DIME. CLAM SHELLS. . . JT-8D!"

 

Alaska is so good at standardization, we are standardized with planes we don't even have anymore.

[Alpha Floor 237]

 

No, not all ILS's are CAT I. In fact, I think you'll find most ILS approaches are not CAT I approaches.

 

If you look at the DH values of your two ILS approach examples, you'll see the 'regular' ILS has the standard DH of 200' while the CAT I ILS has a DH of 150'. These are two great examples you have provided showing exactly why one is a CAT I and the other is not.

 

Well thanks, that's what I thought! 

 

I think that's something very important to point out when talking about ILS approaches, at least among simmers. I got the feeling that everybody assumed that an ILS is "either" CATI, "or" CATII "or" CATIII, and if it hadn't a CAT assigned to its name, then it's a CATI

 

On this website they talk about the different kind of ILSs but they never mention that an ILS approach can just be a "normal" ILS without a CAT: http://instrument.landingsystem.com/

 

Another question: When a pilot is training for his Instrument Rating on a little Cessna 172 (or similar), what kind of ILS approaches can he fly? On the website I posted they say an aircraft has to be IFR equipped, have an ILS receiver and marker beacons. So if that's the case, could you fly a CAT I on a Cessna 172? 

PS: An interesting note that many people don't know: The ILS descent path is the intersection of two radio signals, the one of the GS and the one of the LOC. The GS signal has the form of an upside-down cone with an angle of about 87º between the generatrix and the axis: So it's a very wide "opened" cone. The intersection of the cone and the vertical plane defined by the LOC grants a curve that's a branch of a hyperbola because the GS signal has an offset from the runway centerline. If the GS antenna was right on the runway, then the ILS would be a straight line.

 

So when you're flying an ILS you're actually not flying a straight line, but a hyperbola B)

[wolke85 150]

Great video Ralph - Thank You very much for sharing!

And a great discussion here as well - all most informative!

[Spin737 102]

 

 

Are ALL ILS approaches either CAT I or CAT II or CAT III? Is there such thing as a "ILS" without anything else, without a CAT assigned?

Yes, all ILS are CAT something. There is no "ILS." Most of the time we just fly the CAT I. If you're plane is equipped and you're trained and approved, you can do the CAT I SA on down to the CAT III stuff.

 

We don't usually use the tern CAT I, unless we're flying a plane that's been downgraded in it Low Weather Minimums Status or the airport has an approach that is not available for some reason. i.e. "We can't do the CAT III today, so we'll just do it CAT I and hope we get in."

 

 

 

So if that's the case, could you fly a CAT I on a Cessna 172?

Yes. That's how private pilots learn to fly an ILS.

 

The 737 will fly any approach on autopilot - CAT I through CAT III. Just because you're doing a CAT I, you don't have to fly manually. You just have to turn off the autopilot at 50agl at the very latest.

[Alpha Floor 237]

Well I think we have a disagreement between what Matt and Ralph are saying. And I think you guys are both pilots right?

 

So that's interesting!

[Spin737 102]

Well I think we have a disagreement between what Matt and Ralph are saying. And I think you guys are both pilots right?

 

So that's interesting!

I'm not all knowing, so don't take my word as gospel, but I believe every ILS is CAT I II or III. You can have variations like CAT I SA or CAT IIIa, but they're still CAT I II or III.

 

Here's how it typically works:

 

You're enroute from SAN to SEA. You check in with SEA Center. "Hey, Alaska 699, what's your RVR requirement for landing Seattle?"

 

Uh, oh! Did the weather go down??? Crap. It wasn't supposed to get foggy for three more hours.

 

"Standby. . ."

 

Get out the book, check the charts, check the plane to make sure it's good. You see that you need 400/400/300 for the RVRs for 16L CAT IIIa. Was there any NOTAMS for 16L? Hmm. Better check again.

 

"400, Alaska 699."  You just give them the bigger number.

 

Center comes back "Alaska 699, okay, expect no delay. Break. Southwest 1349, holding instructions when ready to copy."

 

The FO - who was flying - grumbles and says, "Well, I guess YOU get to do the landing. . ." since FOs only get to CAT I stuff at AS.

 

CA briefs the approach and takes the jet and the FO handles the radios.

 

Check in with SEA Approach, "Seattle Approach, Alaska 699 17000, descending via the HAWKZ3 landing south with information Alpha."

 

"Roger Alaska 699, Echo is now current. Altimeter 29.52. Expect vectors 16R. 16R current RVR 600-600-600. Let me know when you have Echo."

 

"Roger."

 

Ding the flight attendants in the back. "Hi, this is Shelly." "Hi, Shelly, we're going to do an autoland, so can you make an announcement?" (Personal electronic devices, were approved for use below 10,000' a while back, but they have to be turned off for the autoland.) "Sure. Are we going to get in? I'm going to get my hair done and then I was going to go shopping and . . ."

 

5 minutes later.

 

"Okay, sounds great. Bye."

 

10 minutes later.

 

"Alaska 699, you're 3 miles from KARFO turn left heading 190, maintain 3200 until established, cleared ILS 16L approach."

 

They clear you for the ILS. They don't know exactly which one you're doing. It could be the CAT IIIa HGS only, Autoland, Hybrid. . . they don't ask. It's up to you to make sure you're legal to land with whatever gear you've got.

 

The only time I tell them we're doing an autoland is if it's VFR and the ILS critical area isn't protected. (Sometimes the jet or the CA needs to log an autoland for currency.)

 

That's the short version.

[mullvaden83 42]

Very nice indeed!

Very good presentation!

Tanks. =)

[rfresh737 36]

@Jamie

 

Yes, we are both pilots. Every airline has their own way of doing things. For example, at Matt's airline (he has informed us) they do manual CAT IIIa ILS approaches using the HUD. I've never heard of that before. I've been fortunate in that I've had the pleasure to train and work with various airlines in the US and many foreign carriers. Surprising, they all do things differently and in their 'own way'. Especially with emergency procedures. In doing things their own way, I think this also plays a role in how they view terms and definitions.

 

Back to your question Jamie:

 

>Another question: When a pilot is training for his Instrument Rating on a little Cessna 172

>(or similar), what kind of ILS approaches can he fly? On the web site I posted they say

>an aircraft has to be IFR equipped, have an ILS receiver and marker beacons. So if

>that's the case, could you fly a CAT I on a Cessna 172?

 

A C-172 instrument rated pilot can fly any ILS in which his aircraft has the required instrumentation (LOC receiver, GS receiver, Marker Beacon system are the basics) as called out for on the approach plate 'in actual weather conditions'. That last part is the key to your answer really. We're talking about flying a given approach in actual weather conditions.

 

Some ILS approaches require DME, so unless your C-172 has DME you cannot legally fly that ILS approach. Some ILS approaches require two nav receivers if you don't have DME. If you have two nav receivers and no DME then you may be able to fly that ILS approach.

 

In VFR conditions, you can fly any ILS you want. As Matt pointed out, when you're cleared for an ILS approach, ATC doesn't ask you which one or ask if you're current, qualified, etc. They know the legal requirements to shoot the ILS are your responsibility. They just clear you for an approach to a specific runway.

 

If the ILS approach is marked as an "SA" (Special Authorization required) then the C-172 pilot cannot fly that ILS 'in actual IFR weather conditions' because he won't have the Special Authorization from the FAA.

 

If the ILS approach is marked as a CAT II or CAT III ILS then the C-172 pilot cannot fly that ILS 'in actual IFR weather conditions' because all CAT II and III ILS approaches require special training for the pilot and the aircraft equipment must meet certain requirements as well.

 

Let's take a look at three ILS approaches for San Francisco runway 28R.

 

http://www.1849WebHosting.com/KSFO_ILS_28R_CAT2_CAT3.PDF

 

This ILS plate is titled:

 

"ILS or LOC RWY 28R"

"SAN FRANCISCO INTL(SFO)"

 

You'll note at the bottom part of this plate under CATEGORY A (which is what a C-172 falls under) the minimums are a standard DH of 200' AGL. But a C-172 does not have a radar altimeter so it's minimums are 213' MSL and RVR of 1800 feet.

 

Now, look at this ILS plate for 28R:

http://www.1849WebHosting.com/FSFO_SA_CAT1_ILS.PDF

 

This ILS plate is titled:

 

"ILS or LOC RWY 28R (SA CAT I)"

"SAN FRANCISCO INTL(SFO)"

 

Ahhhh...there's that "SA CAT I" wording. For your C-172 driver, he or she could not legally make this ILS approach in actual IFR weather conditions.

 

If you look at the bottom part of this plate, the DH is lower, as we would expect: 150' AGL.

 

And as a reminder, the bottom of the plate also states:

"SA CATEGORY I ILS - SPECIAL AIRCREW & AIRCRAFT CERTIFICATION REQUIRED"

 

Now, look at this last example ILS plate for 28R:

http://www.1849WebHosting.com/KSFO_ILS_28R_CAT2_CAT3.PDF

 

This ILS plate is titled:

 

"ILS or LOC RWY 28R (CAT II & III)"

"SAN FRANCISCO INTL(SFO)"

 

Now it says "CAT II & III". Once again, the C-172 driver could not legally make this ILS approach in actual IFR weather conditions.

 

If you look at the bottom part of this plate, the DH for a CAT II approach is 100' AGL.

For a CAT III the DH is 0 (yikes!) and RVR is 600 or 700 feet.

 

And the same reminder at the bottom of the plate:

"SA CATEGORY I ILS - SPECIAL AIRCREW & AIRCRAFT CERTIFICATION REQUIRED"

[Michael Moe 498]

Thanks for this Great video. All though its all about CatIII maybe we can clarify the differents between DA and DH. I know DA is above sealevel and barometer and not used with cat III. DH is used by the radio altimeter AGL right and therefor automatic precision approaches?

 

So would you use DA on the ILS chart with CAT 1?

 

Thanks

 

Michael

[rfresh737 36]

Thanks for this Great video. All though its all about CatIII maybe we can clarify the differents between DA and DH. I know DA is above sealevel and barometer and not used with cat III. DH is used by the radio altimeter AGL right and therefor automatic precision approaches?

 

So would you use DA on the ILS chart with CAT 1?

 

Thanks

 

Michael

 

DH is for height above the ground (AGL) so that would mean you have a radar altimeter on board. DA is for altitude (MSL) so you would reference that on your baro altimeter.

 

If you have a radar altimeter, you would use that for all your ILS approaches and back it up with your baro altimeter...so you would use DH, otherwise, you would use DA with your baro altimeter only.