What is this? 1997?

[KERNEL32 525]

7 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

I appreciate your explanation of voxels, which is not a term I had heard before.

The sim is certainly capable of producing more realistic skies than it currently does though - Rex Weatherforce is using the same data to produce better skies. I have posted these two before and shows the sky from the same metar report.  There were two cloud layers, highest of which was overcast at 25,000ft. REX nailed both layers where Live Weather gave an awful rendition.  

Clearly MS/Asobo could represent the weather better than they do - perhaps REX could be part of the weather team?

Rex Weatherforce.

Live Weather

The next two images shows the issue again.  Two high level cloud layers were present. 

REX does a remarkable job with both layers.  Look closely through the bottom layer (top left especially) and you can see a whiter cirrus layer represented. 

Live weather shows the high layer but to my eyes is not depicted as well.

Yes, kind of what I've been pushing for in the official forums for seems like well over a year (since SU3) - Asobo Live weaher "dropped" all of the types except cumulus. REX is using the clouds that are "still lurking somewhere in the sim coding", whereas the Live weather dropped all those variations and only uses cumulus. I think that's what I've been trying to say more or less. Is that a bug? I dunno, but it has made the cloudscapes rather boring compared to what they used to be.

If MS could just use the variations as seen above (especially those high clouds and solid high/thin overcast that is opaque) I think we would be most of the way there. The rest is making the atmosphere (i.e. the visibility, air quality, humidity) more realistic.

Edited April 18, 2022 by KERNEL32

[Stearmandriver 2,343]

19 minutes ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

To be fair to MS/Asobo, this sky doesn't look bad at all, but not as good as someone else did with the same data.

Man, these shots really look good.  I might have to try Rex.  Any downsides?

[MrBitstFlyer 3,944]

Just now, Stearmandriver said:

Man, these shots really look good.  I might have to try Rex.  Any downsides?

Since release REX has had an fps hit when the weather is updated, but in the latest couple of public preview releases this is far better. 

Secondly REX doesn't have access to the Weather SDK, so it can't have different weather in different locations like Live Weather.  Therefore there are more weather transitions between areas.  REX does smooth these transitions over about a minute - this is the compromise you make.  more transitions than Live Weather, but depicted much better.  I personally find the transitions fine for the better weather depiction.

[KERNEL32 525]

20 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Man, these shots really look good.  I might have to try Rex.  Any downsides?

Buyer beware (I think?) but I've been participating in the SU9 Beta and REX crashes the sim for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong though...

Edited April 19, 2022 by KERNEL32

[Flic1 1,026]

1 hour ago, KERNEL32 said:

Buyer beware (I think?) but I've been participating in the SU9 Beta and REX crashes the sim for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong though..

There's barely a weather thread in existence on Avsim where MrBits hasn't come in to promote REX Weather Force with the same 3 screenshots from 1 or 2 Sim Updates ago.  REX WF is in fact like going back to 1997 with the static weather bubbles and then sudden transitions with the devastating FPS hit.  I'm still amazed that people want a static weather bubble around them and not see the dynamic, changing weather around them in this sim.  Maybe the Live WX doesn't produce quite the same quality clouds as the static presets all the time but still awesome and much better than what we had for decades on the other platforms. Live WX is looking much better on SU9 Beta as well....

Edited April 19, 2022 by Flic1

[scotchegg 4,343]

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

They're wavy stratus; cirrostratus I would guess.  They lack any vertical development or defined updraft that would brand them as cumuloform.

Examples: 

https://www.google.com/search?q=+cirrostratus+from+air&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjoq7Tq3573AhXEGDQIHU-xCesQ2-cCegQIABAB&oq=+cirrostratus+from+air&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzoHCCMQ7wMQJ1CSCViNDWCpEWgAcAB4AIABaYgBqwOSAQMzLjKYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=9vFdYujYFMSx0PEPz-Km2A4&bih=630&biw=360&client=ms-android-verizon&prmd=isnv#imgrc=OkRdXU1FzxbkSM

Sorry, don't see that at all. They don't look in the least bit wavy, or wispy. Sure, they lack any vertical development but that's what I meant by flattened / 2D cumuloforms. They're still clustered, fluffy edged flatter shapes. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see what you linked to in the sim, but so far no evidence of them (to my eyes).

[Stearmandriver 2,343]

1 hour ago, scotchegg said:

they lack any vertical development but that's what I meant by flattened / 2D cumuloforms.

This doesn't make sense to me.  The literal defining characteristic of a cumuloform cloud is that it contains an updraft and is vertically developed.

If you agree these lack any vertical development, how could they be any kind of cumuloform?  You might as well say that any cloud you've ever seen in reality is some kind of cumuloform... some are just "flattened" ;).

You can easily see the wave pattern in the original pic.  Regarding my linked images, the main one is the closest to what we see here; the point was to show the variety of possible cirrostratus clouds. Too often people hear "cirrus" and immediately think classic mare's tail, but there are so many different forms these clouds can take. To be very specific, what we're seeing here is closer to cirrostratus undulattus, but the very smooth, gentle flavor of those, vs the hard chiseled ridges.

 

[Bdub22 1,730]

1 hour ago, Flic1 said:

REX WF is in fact like going back to 1997 with the static weather bubbles and then sudden transitions with the devastating FPS hit.

I completely agree. I wish I could get a refund for REX because it's terrible. Whatever small gain I get in weather depiction (which is small because MSFS default weather isn't that bad) is not worth the devastating transitions and major loss in FPS. I'd rather have OK looking weather, then be on final and have a gigantic shift in the weather. It breaks the immersion way more than some odd looking clouds does. 

[scotchegg 4,343]

2 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

This doesn't make sense to me.  The literal defining characteristic of a cumuloform cloud is that it contains an updraft and is vertically developed.

If you agree these lack any vertical development, how could they be any kind of cumuloform?  You might as well say that any cloud you've ever seen in reality is some kind of cumuloform... some are just "flattened" ;).

You can easily see the wave pattern in the original pic.  Regarding my linked images, the main one is the closest to what we see here; the point was to show the variety of possible cirrostratus clouds. Too often people hear "cirrus" and immediately think classic mare's tail, but there are so many different forms these clouds can take. To be very specific, what we're seeing here is closer to cirrostratus undulattus, but the very smooth, gentle flavor of those, vs the hard chiseled ridges.

 

1) I understand IRL cumuloforms are 3D, but the picture we're talking about and all the clouds in the sim in recent updates are flattened versions of this with clustered, puffy edges. It's just a 2D slice of a 3D form. I'm certainly not claiming that there are 2D cumuloforms IRL, this is just how MSFS appears to be generating flatter clouds.

2) No, I can not easily see the wave pattern in the original pic. I see repeated, flattened puffs.

[Stearmandriver 2,343]

18 minutes ago, scotchegg said:

1) I understand IRL cumuloforms are 3D, but the picture we're talking about and all the clouds in the sim in recent updates are flattened versions of this with clustered, puffy edges. It's just a 2D slice of a 3D form. I'm certainly not claiming that there are 2D cumuloforms IRL, this is just how MSFS appears to be generating flatter clouds.

2) No, I can not easily see the wave pattern in the original pic. I see repeated, flattened puffs.

1.  This still doesn't make sense. You could claim any status cloud in reality is just the middle slice of a cumulus cloud... it's all the same water vapor after all ;).  But without a defined updraft and visible vertical development, a cloud cannot be considered cumuloform.  It just... can't. 

2.  This is zoom of the OP image.  Zoom in further on it.  Note the yellow line. Note the repeating wave pattern in the clouds. 

[wim123 769]

6 hours ago, KERNEL32 said:

Buyer beware (I think?) but I've been participating in the SU9 Beta and REX crashes the sim for me. Maybe I'm doing something wrong though...

this is because it needs a new version for every update, has been there form the beginning of rex.

[March Hare 722]

8 hours ago, MrBitstFlyer said:

Rex Weatherforce is using the same data to produce better skies.

Not quite. It uses the same graphics engine -- the sim's own rendering capabilities -- and it taps into the same data/variables that the sim's presets use, but manipulate's the numbers "on the fly" based on data from its own servers.

The sim's live weather engine uses different data, but still the same rendering engine that its presets and REX use.

As I said, part of the problem is the data in the live engine, but neither the sim's incoming data or REX's manipulation of the variables based on reports from its own servers would produce realistic, wispy cirrus, for example, because that's a current limitation of the graphics rendering, which REX doesn't do any of.

REX haven't proven that they can do better cloud rendering; they have proven that they can manipulate the sim's preset variables, so to speak, using an automated method. Asobo could have done that too, but their live weather engine (not rendering engine) is attempting something very different with how cloud and weather systems form in real time.

Edited April 19, 2022 by March Hare

[SubtotalGuide 133]

Remarkable how the sim had REX levels of live weather rendering before SU5 and SU7. Now we have regulars trying to lecture us on the current situation about how we don't understand what Asobo is trying to do. Remember all the talk about morphing terrain and trees? While people were staring at the ground Asobo had their hands on the weather. What are they busy ruining this time with our heads in the clouds?

[mrueedi 702]

8 hours ago, KERNEL32 said:

whereas the Live weather dropped all those variations and only uses cumulus. I think that's what I've been trying to say more or less.

With your first screenshot you loudly complain about some non cumulus-type of cloud, which in fact is looking mostly realistic as we have learned, and now you say there would be only cumulus clouds. I miss consistency in your reasoning.

[Noel 4,611]

7 hours ago, March Hare said:

Not quite. It uses the same graphics engine -- the sim's own rendering capabilities -- and it taps into the same data/variables that the sim's presets use, but manipulate's the numbers "on the fly" based on data from its own servers.

The sim's live weather engine uses different data, but still the same rendering engine that its presets and REX use.

As I said, part of the problem is the data in the live engine, but neither the sim's incoming data or REX's manipulation of the variables based on reports from its own servers would produce realistic, wispy cirrus, for example, because that's a current limitation of the graphics rendering, which REX doesn't do any of.

REX haven't proven that they can do better cloud rendering; they have proven that they can manipulate the sim's preset variables, so to speak, using an automated method. Asobo could have done that too, but their live weather engine (not rendering engine) is attempting something very different with how cloud and weather systems form in real time.

This is why I have less than no interest in 'chasing' development w/ a 3rd party product that with every SU ends up needs updated.  Patience is called for and we are not going to get where we want on weather and cloud depiction until the graphics rendering piece is developed further and Asobo is in charge of that it would appear.  They're not done, and they have said publicly in a recent video interview they are working on cloud morphology and more.   REX to me has always been 90% interface development, and 10% actual improvement of anything.  I remember in P3D all the myriad hi def cloud types that were 95% identical to the other ones.   REX is great at making the GUI look incredible but flops with meaningful improvements--this is just my take over many years of buying their products.