A warning about PRO ATC

[RobJC 2,086]

5 minutes ago, Gazzareth said:

It's definitely a weakness, although for me the benefits of clicking a button on my yoke and asking for clearance or to taxi etc far outweighs the lack of voices. Have added all the MS English ones which helps a bit - but still kind of lacking in that respect.....

I am not saying more voice variety wouldn't be welcome, but for me personally I can get past it since it isn't 2 voices for everything. I too have all the English voices from MS. Not perfect, but good enough - for me. 

[thomasl123 6]

44 minutes ago, ConstVoid said:

That would be me that posted it  😀 . Now I'm not so sure that it's just Mourad (the developer) who's having issues. Maybe Thomas is also suffering the strain of supporting a product without backup.

👍

[environmental_ice 248]

Vatsim for me until we get a better offline option. I just try to make sure im always flying into BOS or LAX. ATC is usually on. Im personally thinking of applying to be a controller for MSP Center or Salt Lake Center. Seems they could use some help and id love to give back to the community by controlling once in a while

[Beardyman 621]

3 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

ATC rules haven't changed. What was valid 15 years ago still is.

Ray, is there any guidance how to install it into P3D5?, maybe i will try that again...

[Ray Proudfoot 9,118]

8 minutes ago, Beardyman said:

Ray, is there any guidance how to install it into P3D5?, maybe i will try that again...

It’s been over 3 years since I did so my memory is a little vague. When it wants you to point to the folder containing FSX.EXE just point to the P3Dv5 folder. If it complains no executable exists create a text file and rename it to FSX.EXE.

You’re probably missing a required DLL. Contact me and I’ll give you a link to it.

[Sonosusto 739]

3 hours ago, cchiozza said:

I use PROATC. I like Pilot2Atc but those voices are just terrible. I keep hearing about using AWS voices but have not been able to get work. Has anyone else?

I bought some voices and it was worth the money alone. I got like 8 or so. Between those they really make a difference. No robots.

[SierraHotel 1,001]

I believe it was somewhere around 2014 that ProATC/X first appeared and I purchased it shortly thereafter. I think, like most people, I like my software easy to use but complex enough to fullfill my needs. I found ProATC excelled at both, on installation it worked first time, admittedly there was a learning curve and a few bugs, but not as many as I assumed there would be. I loved it for the near realism it offered like when ATC changes nationality as you cross borders or when you suddenly get a change of runway at your destination and until ProATC arrived I had never in my (very) long flight sim career been asked to hold, I remember my first flight sim (haha) was F15 Eagle on the Sinclair Spectrum! So being asked to enter holding in the PMDG 737 was whole new ballgame for me and I have to say pretty exciting. It worked flawlessly that first time and I was very impressed, although afterward I had a few flights whereby it would not release me and I soon realised that it was just a piece of software and if you didn't follow the rules then said software would not comply. I have used ProATC/X and now ProATC/SR for every single flight I have made, apart from the brief interlude when MSFS first came out, and I have flown at least twice a day every day using ProATC for 9 years! That's more than a few thousand hours so I'm fairly sure I've had my monies worth. Yes I know ProATC is not perfect, show me anything that is, especially software! But I bet you would be hard pressed to offer me a similar product that has given me so much pleasure. Ironically a very large portion of those flights using ProATC dating back to 2014 and using FSX, FSX Steam, P3D to version 5 and MSFS are available to watch on my YouTube channel. I also run the FB ProATC group and have tutorial video's available. Yes I LOVE ProATC and have very few problems with it, so apart from the problem new purchasers are facing (very bad) I would be glad to offer help and advice on the use of ProATC to anyone that requires it.

Edited February 28, 2023 by SierraHotel

[Sonosusto 739]

3 hours ago, Bobsk8 said:

That is what turned me off about Pilot2 ATC. I have over 100 voices in P3D, and the vast majority are pretty good. If you find a few you don't like, you can just eliminate them in the menu structure. Adding voices in PIlot2 ATC seems to be either expensive or involves fiddling with the registry, which I hate doing. And you still wind up with only about 10 different voices. 

You don't have to mess with the registry at all. Pilot2ATC will recognize the voice. I think it was like 100 or so for the voice I got. Having 8 or so was just enough for me. Easy peasy. These voices are good voices though.

 Not the kind that sound like robots.

[c912039 112]

(APOLOGIES if anyone is 'triggered' by any negative comments Ive expressed below for your favorite ATC program)

ProATC/X SR in my opinion, probably has the better 'ATC' functionality, compared to the rest of the options for MSFS.
I agree that support for PATC has been lackluster at best, terrible at worst, but, I'm not experiencing any major showstoppers yet whilst using ProATC/X.

For the record, I own ProATC/X SR, P2ATC, FSHUD and Ive tried RC4 (in P3D) and looked at PF3.
I use ProATC/X on a daily basis as my preferred ATC add-on.

First and foremost in an ATC package, I look for 'full' ATC interaction:
If the product doesnt know of, load and manage departures and arrivals with SID/STARs, then its a no-go for me.
I should NOT have to manually add SIDs and STARs for a given airport - it should be read from NAV sources.

I should NOT have to tell ATC 'how to do their job'. If I have to manually add which departure runway, which SID, which STAR and arrival runway I will end up using, then I might as well save my money and guide myself. ATC should decide, based on weather factors 'at the correct point in time' which runway, SID & STAR I should use, and tell me so. It should NOT lock in STAR and arrival runway at the time I file my plan, because, especially on long haul, the weather might/will change by the time I get close to my destination.

ATC SHOULD be able to advise when to start a descent, based on its planned STAR and runway, and based on the aircraft type and decent profile. It SHOULD be aware of constraints and anticipate when I need to safely start a descent, matching constraints and not force me into a steep descent because of poor planning.
Likewise ATC program should be aware of constraints on departure and manage my climb appropriately.

At the very least, the ATC program should offer quick/easy text based interaction as a base line, and voice recognition is an added bonus. Not everyone can use voice recognition, and the text based interface should not an afterthought with little thought as to how quick/easy this interaction should be. 

ATC add-ons really should concentrate on making the ATC control and interactivity THE PRIME focus of the program, and once this is rock solid, THEN add in 'fluff' pieces such as AI interaction, Autopilot control (WHY??? this is an ATC program, not another flight control panel), Radio panel control (again, WHY?????), Flight Plan Builder (Simbrief and other free programs are designed/built for this, having in an ATC program just duplicates effort).

ProATC/X Pros/Cons

PROs (things that ProATC/X does best/better than the rest)
Saved profiles for given flights (very useful for VA flights), recording A/C type, Flight number, Gate options, Callsign
A/C profiles where cruise,climb,descent profiles are stored and used by ProATC/X
Proper managed runway allocations, SID,STAR and most of the time constraints based on weather conditions at the appropriate points in time
Text menu operation is by far THE BEST out of all programs, as its aware of the current 'phase' and limits menu options to those that may be required at that point in time
Voices are 'OK', if you load in extra pre-recorded voice packs. They can sound better that T2S voices, but lack of vendor support has limited additional packs being made by others
Detection of proximity to runway hold points was spot on, leading to correct time to advise to switch to tower freq
Handling of correct gate (either set in the saved flight profile, or set to random based on airline, or totally random) for each airport is very good, with user able to edit/override these lookups
Taxi routing actually quite good (MSFS scenery BGL coding can make this very difficult for any ATC program to get right.
 

CONs
Vendor support and interaction is NON EXISTENT and at times, response by support team in the forum is off-putting
Voice packs are no longer being created by users, probably because of lack of support and visibility by the vendor
Constraint and descent profiles are miscalculated, and 'below' constraints are treated as 'not below' constraints
Step climbs trigger early descent (although there was a form entry detailing the cause and how to eliminate this, I'm yet to try that out)
Lack of ability to add in better taxiing rules for each airport (such as preferred runways base don time, parallel taxiway directions etc)
Stored flight plans/configs are great but an adhoc option without having to store the plans/config would be useful too

 

My thoughts on other ATC programs:
RC4/PF3 - no support for SIDs/STARs from NAV data means they are a no-go for me.

FSHUD - Its been a while since I used this last, but at the time I was forced to add SID/STAR and runway details when planning my flight - I should not have to do ATC's work for them.
I felt there was more attention to dealing with AI interaction at the expense of getting ATC processes spot on. I had issues with descent profile (maybe because there wasnt a table where the a/c perf could be looked up/edited to make the climb/descent rates valid. Text based interaction was OK, perhaps not as quick and tailored as PATC/X but certainly light years ahead of P2ATC.
I cant recall it auto-handling the correct gates at the destination (based on airline).
Crossing runway handling was good, but Im not sure about having to constantly switch between ground and tower for that. Detection to proximity to runway hold points for advice to change frequency was no where near as accurate as ProATC/X.
It seems to me that FSHUD author spent a long time on the flight plan interface and therefore did not want to hear any suggestions as to dropping part of the FP requirements forcing me to have to enter STAR and runway when building the FP.

P2ATC - Oh dear 😞 (from a text interface user point of view). I acknowledge that the author does put in a lot of time in enhancements and interacting with users, however there are a few fundamental issues that seem to have been overlooked at the expense of time spent on panels that dont seem relevant to 'ATC control' such as Comms panel control, Autopilot control etc,
The Voice recognition functionality might be the best of the crop (I cant say, as I dont use this feature in any of the products), but the alternative text-based interaction is by far THE WORST of all the products and it seems to me like an afterthought or a 'quick hack' to try to simulate the voice interaction, which seems to me what the core product is built on.
The text interface does not seem to switch context between different modes during the flight. For example, if I have clearance deliv freq set, the menu option should ONLY show appropriate selections. Once I have scrolled up and down the dropdown list for my request on this channel, I then have to click on that selection, and then I have to click on the SayIt button to actually get it to do anything. That's WAY too much mouse/keyboard operations that in ProATC/X is done by one click or one keyboard action.
There is no pre-saved flights, where I can store airline, aircraft, callsign, gate options etc. This has to be changed in Config every time.
Adding Random Voices seems to have a bug where after saving a new voice, it doesnt appear without shutting down and restarting the app. And whilst Random voice for ATC is great there should be an option to turn on a lock so that whatever voice is used as Co-Pilot, is NEVER used for any of the ATC positions (this can be done manually if you are careful, but ProATC/X does this for you automatically if you tell it to)
 

For the record, Ive used flight sims since 1982, owned almost all types of flight sim platforms, involved in setting up SATCO (and later VATSIM), and have a PPL. I have used ATC programs for many years, and Ive worked out what works and doesnt work well from a sim pilot's point of view.

I am prepared to spend lots of time with any of the ATC authors to facilitate better interaction and functionality within their ATC programs. This will NEVER happen with ProATC/X as the author seems AWOL (which is a great pity as its probably closest to true ATC control).
P2ATC would be my next choice to work with, but I'm worried that as the product seems to have been built around voice interaction and so entrenched' as the core interaction that text menu interaction is just a 'hack' to input what the voice recog functions expect, and that really doesnt work for text based interface. Id love to help/assist with designing a better text interaction, but I doubt that will happen.
Until FSHUD drops the requirement to have to add/supply STAR and destination runway details into the FP, I'm not sure any other suggestions for improvement would be useful.

Edited March 1, 2023 by c912039

[vadriver 252]

@c912039

a more than interesting & comprehensive post ...... given your use & / or "review" of the ATC addons available on MSFS.

The core feature of PATC (& similar others) I dislike is the failure of pre-recorded voice sets to include all of the many (new & changing) airline / controller / airport / waypoint callsigns one should hear pronounced (resorting to phonetics to fill the gaps). Thus I favour an addon that uses payware T2S sets for copilots, AI and controllers.

& of course I favour an addon that allows downwind ops of both one's & AI aicraft ..... against dynamically assigned SIDS/STARS/APPS ..... & proactively (not reactively) controls and communicates with those aircraft, even parking them at the correct gate.

There is such an addon for P3D ...... maybe MSFS in the medium term.

[hhbrbg 149]

13 hours ago, cchiozza said:

I use PROATC. I like Pilot2Atc but those voices are just terrible. I keep hearing about using AWS voices but have not been able to get work. Has anyone else?

In my experience, AWS voices sometimes work, but often do not. It can happen that you have to restart P2ATC several times in order to use them. It’s a pain in the neck. I had enough, searched the internet, and found a nice and free solution from Bob Black. These voices work each time.

[Ray Proudfoot 9,118]

6 hours ago, c912039 said:

RC4/PF3 - no support for SIDs/STARs from NAV data means they are a no-go for me.

Presumably RC4 did everything else to a high standard but you didn't mention that.

For the record SIDs and STARs were being worked on for v5 but that’s when John Dekker decided he no longer wanted to develop the program.

“Fly what you file” is the case for every ATC program. I have been adding SIDs and STARs to my plan loaded into RC4 for 15 years. In any case a STAR is overruled by ATC so why place so much importance on that?

Being given descent instructions and vectors to an ILS intercept is paramount. RC4 is rock solid in that respect. I would have thought that aspect more important than SIDs and STARs.

[tup61 1,667]

2 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I would have thought that aspect more important than SIDs and STARs.

It's quite odd and also quite funny how often flightsimmers seem to have a totally different priority list than real world pilots. Flight simmers seem to live in a world of their own. SIDs and STARs are just one example. Most simmers don't 'use' them as real workd pilots do. (A related oddity is the constant desire for an ATC program that changes the STAR in midflight, preferably on every flight.) Flightsimmers are an odd bunch. 😉

Edited March 1, 2023 by tup61

[cchiozza 117]

13 hours ago, hhbrbg said:

In my experience, AWS voices sometimes work, but often do not. It can happen that you have to restart P2ATC several times in order to use them. It’s a pain in the neck. I had enough, searched the internet, and found a nice and free solution from Bob Black. These voices work each time.

Thanks!

[cchiozza 117]

23 hours ago, Sonosusto said:

I bought some voices and it was worth the money alone. I got like 8 or so. Between those they really make a difference. No robots.

Where di you buy the voices?