2020 is 'open world'. MSFS 2024 adds the 'sandbox'?

[Lord Farringdon 614]

 Video games can be described in terms of being open world, sandbox or emergent. With all the discussion we are starting to have now regarding MSFS 2024 and what it might (or might not) bring, I thought it may be of some value to those interested to understand just where MSFS 2024 might be going in terms of the genre. Now I'm not going to tell you because I'm just not that bright and I have no idea anyway, but this wiki reference below sheds a bit of light on these terms and where MSFS fits in. There is a lot of stuff in there but just use Ctrl F and type in 'Flight' and then in another search type in 'Sublogic' and all the references to flight sim will be found. Do take a look at the section related to Open World, Sandbox and Emergent games since this appears to be the framework within which MSFS could potentially develop.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world

 

The thought of MSFS 2024, titillated by a couple of 2 min video's, has set Avsim and some of our developers, on fire with FS Expo still to come and fire us up even more. In one corner are those who predict this next incarnation will be the best and their desire for less flight complexity and more goal based activities will be met by the advent of career mode. In trying to be age and platform neutral I could label this group (generalistically) as our VFR group.   In the other corner are those who also predict MSFS 2024 will be the best 'world simulator' particulary from a scenery perspective but for whom career mode will offer little or no interest and they would much rather see more effort placed on finishing off core flight simulation features in relation to weather, clouds, ATC and navigation. These features are necessary for our IFR, procedural and Vatsim users.  

Both groups have valid but entirely different needs and whether MSFS 2024 can cater for both of them adequately will be interesting to see. Some suggest MSFS 2024 can be all things to all people. Personally I think the divergence that we have seen occurring during MSFS's 2020's reign will only be exacerbated in MS2024 and if you skimmed through the wiki reference on open worlds, sandboxes and emergent gameplay you may have recognised some of the direction MS could be taking with MSFS 2024 if only to keep other with other genres.  For the sake of clarity, we should not be concerned about features being removed, but rather our questions, our hopes and maybe our concerns will be related to what will, or will not be added for either group in MSFS 2024.  For example, there have always been those who felt walking through a well modelled busy airport terminal is the perfect start to a flight. Still others felt that rather than being something that they are not IRL (ie a pilot) why not be a passenger instead? I have mentioned in a previous post about fly on the wall discussions between developers and Asobo referencing Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto (GTA) characteristics where the player changes 'vehicles' and even roles. I am certainly looking forward to Rockstar's GTA 6 which is supposed to be released in the fall of 2025. Now, not everyone will be familiar with GTA (I think it is only available on Play Station and Xbox) but Rockstar have also produced two short trailers for their 2025 release.  I hope I'm not busting any rules by offering links to them here but I thought it may be helpful for people to see what a massive selling open world game looks like (and yes you will see aircraft).   "The (GTA) series has been critically acclaimed, with all the main 3D entries in the franchise frequently ranked among the greatest and best-selling video games; it has shipped more than 425 million units, (for the entire series which started in 1997) making it one of the best-selling video game franchises."     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto.

So Flight Simulator might have a bit of catching up to do with sales of 22.1 million units for the entire series since 1982 when it first became available on PC. These GTA trailers shed light on what they MS/Asobo could be trying to emulate, over the next four years. I mean this in terms of graphics, game play, physics etc. Perhaps aviation related storylines will be part of career mode or developed as the sim moves from open world to sandbox to emergent? 

GTA is adult themed so I have not hyperlinked the URL's below. Just paste into your browser.   

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdBZY2fkU-0

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3G_BMC3ZTc

I remain interested in whether this simulator and all its flight physics can be advanced into space? I don't mean in a fantasy way (there are enough of those games out there) but real world orbital mechanics and missions like Gemini and Apollo and IRL future missions like Artemis.  Imagine you have launched, gone into orbit, calculated re-entry burn and now you're under the chutes in your Gemini capsule when you splash down in Western Pacific Ocean, 500 nm East of Okinawa. You change vehicles to the nearby carrier group and now your task is to recover the crew and the capsule back to the carrier. There is a seamlessness to this don't you think, something which open world is good at. 

Finally, to understand the huge capability in open world physics and chemistry you might also like to read the section on 'Procedural generation of open worlds'  in the Open world wiki link above. Procedural generation uses AI and rules to create the 'world' which simply couldn't be achieved manually. The wiki also makes reference to "No Man's Sky, released in 2016, is an open-world game set in a virtually infinite universe. According to the developers, through procedural generation, the game is able to produce more than 18 quintillion (18×1018 or 18,000,000,000,000,000,000) planets to explore....". 

We really have got a lot ahead of us!!

 

(MOD's, I really think we are going to need a 2024 subforum shortly especially after the FS Expo). 

 

Cheers

Terry 

[Sweetd31 58]

I agree a subforum is a good idea. I am 100% certain that MSFS 2020 was a proof of concept to gauge interest, and that 2024 they are going all in. 

[Krakin 6,188]

This was a bit confusing but the highlights for me were you bringing GTA physics into the mix when Asobo never did and you not realizing that Rockstar has only put out one GTA 6 trailer and the second one you linked is actually fan made.......

Edited June 16 by Krakin

[Bdub22 1,730]

I'm with Krakin on this one. MSFS and GTA don't have anything to do with each other - except maybe that they're both open worlds, however GTA is more of an "open city", whereas MSFS is trying to truly replicate the Earth and it's weather. As mentioned above 2020 was just scratching the surface and it's my opinion that maybe some of the higher-ups at Microsoft see MSFS as prospect to create the first living simulation of the entire planet. Weather, oceans, traffic...the potential is limitless. I'm just happy if all that is true, it was a flight simulator that spawned the creation of any future platforms replicating our planet. Exciting times ahead!

[lwt1971 7,987]

5 hours ago, Lord Farringdon said:

 Video games can be described in terms of being open world, sandbox or emergent. With all the discussion we are starting to have now regarding MSFS 2024 and what it might (or might not) bring, I thought it may be of some value to those interested to understand just where MSFS 2024 might be going in terms of the genre

Not sure if I understood all what you were trying to say, but did get a sense of the main bits hopefully, and you do raise some interesting points/questions. It's all semantics at the end of the day but per the traditional definitions, the concepts of open world and sandbox are orthogonal to each other, increasing one doesn't have to mean the other is decreased, etc. All flight simulators are as open world as they can be (i.e. we can fly/roam anywhere), and also have a level of "sandbox"-ness to them, within the confines of flight simulation.. a more sandbox environment would be if I were able to design and model a chair and throw it into the world of the flight sim at whatever altitude and speed and see if the chair's aerodynamics are as they would be IRL 🙂 
 

Quote

In one corner are those who predict this next incarnation will be the best and their desire for less flight complexity and more goal based activities will be met by the advent of career mode. In trying to be age and platform neutral I could label this group (generalistically) as our VFR group.   In the other corner are those who also predict MSFS 2024 will be the best 'world simulator' particulary from a scenery perspective but for whom career mode will offer little or no interest and they would much rather see more effort placed on finishing off core flight simulation features in relation to weather, clouds, ATC and navigation. These features are necessary for our IFR, procedural and Vatsim users.  

Here I have to disagree.. Just because some users seek more activities/missions doesn't mean they want less flight complexity, and vice versa. And those who fly VFR could still desire the same flight complexity as IFR users would. There is no cut and dry "two sides" grouping here obviously. For argument's sake if the aspects of flight simulation were broken into these ones as you called out:
1) Flight complexity
2) 'World simulating' i.e. digital twin earth in MSFS
3) Weather
4) ATC & navigation
5) Simulation of aviation activities, career, etc
Then there could be users who feel all are equally important, and others who feel only some are, etc. And those users could be any of VFR/IFR/procedural/vatsim/whatever users.

In terms of aviation activities and careers, we still need to know the details and how deeply they'll simulate those activities, and also the other big unknown is how much of a "sandbox" those will be. I presume the worst cases will be that these activities are fairly scripted, not open ended, and also confined to certain aircraft in the default fleet. And if that worst case does happen, those not interested in those activities still can use the sim in exactly the way we're used to now, in a free-form way. I'd imagine however MS/Asobo will be making aviation activities more open ended, flexible, and 3rd-party extendable and customizable For example, I can foresee them giving aircraft developers more config and other parameters/settings/APIs/etc so that a 3rd party aircraft can be enabled for activity X, or Y, etc.
 

Quote

For the sake of clarity, we should not be concerned about features being removed, but rather our questions, our hopes and maybe our concerns will be related to what will, or will not be added for either group in MSFS 2024

Fair question, and I think it's one that's been well clarified and answered by MS/Asobo. Yes they are expanding the breadth of the flight simulator to simulate other aviation activities, but not at the expense or neglect of core flight simulation. MSFS 2024 is a superset of MSFS 2020 in terms of end-user functionality and sim capabilities. So the absolute very worst case is that they don't fix or improve *any* aspects of core simulation at all, and *only* focus all their expansive (250+ person) team on the new aviation activities. Obviously the worst case is not happening since they are dividing their focus into three main areas *equally*: core simulation improvements, digital twin earth fidelity improvements, new aviation activities/careers. If they were like a traditional simulator team with far less developers and 3rd party partnerships, I'd be worried as to how they're able to focus on all three areas. But this is not the case here with MS/Asobo.

As to your other points about expanding the scope of this sim to space/etc.. I don't at all doubt the MS is playing the long game here, and all this infrastructure and development resource being poured into combining their technology stacks to present a digital twin earth to this level of fidelity means it's ripe for other applications down the road. I'd envision and dream of a sim world based on this in the future that also seamlessly integrates train and driving simming, maybe boating/sailing, and yes maybe even space 🙂
 

Edited June 16 by lwt1971

[Fielder 3,883]

Everybody into the sandbox!

 

[UrgentSiesta 1,044]

4 hours ago, Bdub22 said:

higher-ups at Microsoft see MSFS as prospect to create the first living simulation of the entire planet. Weather, oceans, traffic...the potential is limitless.

 

It's a No Brainer.

IIRC, MSFS actually started as a world sim and they decided to graft on the FS as one idea to commercialize it.

And Lockheed Martin has done/is doing this with Prepar3D. Some folks may not know that there are submarines included as default vehicles in the sim - a deep submergence unit and even an SSBN!

They're also modeling IRL wildfire propagation to assist with IRL fire fighting, etc.

Il2 Sturmovik kinda sorta has this with their Tank Crew title - the tank portion is embedded in one of their air combat maps.

DCS World is somewhat similar with Combat Arms, and of course, the War Thunder game has been "multi disciplined" for quite some time.

So, I can't imagine MS haven't discussed and planned around it. 

I personally would LOVE to be able to have  Hi Fi ship, sub, and car experiences in MSFS and would gladly "invest" money if it ever became available.

And not only for "gamers" like us, but having come from the photo intel world, I'd say there's almost zero chance that various govt / large corps aren't already using the world sim for Serious Business IRL.

Edited June 17 by UrgentSiesta

[UrgentSiesta 1,044]

4 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

All flight simulators are as open world as they can be (i.e. we can fly/roam anywhere

Sadly not for two of my favs: DCSW and Il2.

But like friends, they each bring their own specialties to the experience.

[UrgentSiesta 1,044]

This is a Big Picture idea - how refreshing!

While I don't necessarily agree with everything written, I definitely like a lot of it. 🤙

[jcomm 6,121]

My cat - Cagarini - loves his sandbox...

I'm planning to feel like him when MFS 2024 get's released... AND!!!! No PUN intended !!!! 🐱

Edited June 17 by jcomm

[Tuskin38 7,097]

16 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

IIRC, MSFS actually started as a world sim and they decided to graft on the FS as one idea to commercialize it.

Inspiration came from another Asobo project, HoloTour of Machu Picchu for MS's HoloLense.

It honestly surprises me there's no Machu Picchu POI in the sim.

From Wikipedia

 

Quote

Six years before its release, Microsoft began working with Asobo on a product called HoloTour for Microsoft's HoloLens mixed reality headset. They built a digital version of Machu Picchu's vast mountainside and vistas versus normal buildings at street level. Microsoft executives and Neumann consulted with the Bing Maps team to use their detailed photogrammetry data of Machu Picchu, which included the ruins, to create a HoloLens replica of it. Neumann later used Bing Maps photogrammetry data for Asobo to build a flight demo for the city of Seattle,^[53] The technology incorporates Microsoft's discontinued Photosynth project, which generates 3D models from 2D photos.^[56] Wanting to use the technology for a game, project leader Jörg Neumann realized that Microsoft possessed Flight Simulator. David Denhart of Aces Game Studio had archived its flight simulator work, which was given to Asobo.^[23]

 

Edited June 17 by Tuskin38

[Krakin 6,188]

24 minutes ago, Tuskin38 said:

Inspiration came from another Asobo project, HoloTour of Machu Picchu for MS's HoloLense.

It honestly surprises me there's no Machu Picchu POI in the sim.

From Wikipedia

 

 

Yeah it was a matter of everything coming together at the right time. Apparently, employees at MS had been bugging the higher ups to get back into the franchise for years but it was the advancements in tech that finally gave Phil Spencer a reason to forge ahead with it.

[sd_flyer 6,168]

7 hours ago, jcomm said:

My cat - Cagarini - loves his sandbox...

I'm planning to feel like him when MFS 2024 get's released... AND!!!! No PUN intended !!!! 🐱

You are going to take a dump? LOL 

[s0cks 149]

23 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

IIRC, MSFS actually started as a world sim and they decided to graft on the FS as one idea to commercialize it.

I don't think you remember correctly. Asobo did a project for HoloLens using Bing photogrammetry. It was a small area around the citadel of Machu Picchu. That then led to the idea for MSFS. I don't think there was ever the idea to create a "world sim". It was always to be a flight sim and consequently it shared a lot of FSX code.

I do think there is potential perhaps for boat/sub simulation, but I think we're a long way off from anything like a driving sim. The ground mesh just isn't high detailed enough, and the scenery at ground level is still a bit meh, even with the best photogrammetry. If that data improves then perhaps.

[ca_metal 2,258]

23 hours ago, UrgentSiesta said:

Sadly not for two of my favs: DCSW and Il2.

But like friends, they each bring their own specialties to the experience.

They are actually open world. Open world doesn't mean the whole world is available. Open World actually means there's not linearity. You can do whatever you want, whenever you want. It doesn't even need to have a large scenery to be considered open world. The concept is simple: 

Quote

a video game or part of a video game in which the player is not constrained to achieving specific goals and has a large degree of freedom to explore, interact with, or modify the game environment