PMDG 777 EFB

[JRBarrett 3,289]

57 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

You likely won't find a line pilot anywhere that prefers the Boeing EFB to a tablet.  

The reality is that there is no advantage to the built-in EFB; that list posted earlier is all simply opinions.  

The main advantage of the tablet is simple - the airline can control it, what's on it, and what they want it to do.  As just one example, we use an app on our iPads to calculate and track holdover times for de-icing.  This is an app built in-house by the airline, tailored to our operation, types of fluid and deicing techniques etc.  We didn't have to buy it from Boeing, pay them to install it on their devices in our airplanes etc... Our own IT team simply built it and pushed it to the pilot iPads.  It just showed up one day, ready to go.  It is updated every year and whenever else necessary, all automatically. 

We build and maintain our own release app as well, that incorporates release and flight plan data with weather and notams, relevant company memos, performance data, crew info and flight/duty time tracking and notification, up to the second MX status... And more being added all the time.

We have probably a dozen tailored apps like this, for things unique to our operation.  Most airlines do.  None of this can be done with the built in EFB.

Conversely, there's nothing that can be done with the built in device that cannot be done with a tablet.  Choices are always good but from PMDG 's standpoint, it's understandable that they'll only want to deal with maintaining one version of an EFB, and it's understandable which one they chose... And ironically, for the same reason as in real life - an iPad is infinitely scalable in terms of what you can realistically make it do.

 

We operate three Dassault Falcon 900EASy aircraft, two of which were delivered with a Dassault class 3 EFB. It had its uses, but the advance of IPads and the various apps available for it meant the built-in EFB was used less and less. In 2016 we permanently removed them from both aircraft.

Every pilot in our department is issued an IPad Pro with all of our standard apps, including Jeppesen-enabled Foreflight for flight planning and charts, and ARINC Direct for performance calculations. I can think of no pilot who was around in the era of the dedicated EFB who thinks it was a “better” solution.

I was sitting in the break room yesterday while two of our pilots were having lunch and planning an upcoming trip on their IPads. Checking weather, running weight and balance, filing their flight plan etc.

In any case, if we had not removed the dedicated EFB before, we would have had to do so within the last few months, because Dassault issued a recent emergency operator message mandating that the dedicated EFB be permanently removed from any aircraft in which installed. The reason was that aging components and lack of support by the original manufacturer of the EFB led to a situation where an internal memory backup battery could potentially catch on fire without warning.

[lwt1971 7,995]

6 hours ago, jcomm said:

The pmdg from his videos and s few others makes some weird pitch oscillations on final indeed... I'm honestly much more inclined towards the FF this time...

Just as FlightDeck2Sim in this videdo: 

Oh you mean the pitch issue that PMDG fixed before release with the help of Blackbox711? 🙂 .. V1-Simulations, 320 Sim Pilot (777 & 787 rated), Into The Blue Simulations are all lauding the handling and flight dynamics of the PMDG 777 including its control laws, I think I'll go by their expert takes (especially since they are true professionals, and give unbiased no-nonsense takes on various sims and add-on products).

And the usual depth of the overall aircraft simulation, systems, etc we've come to expect from PMDG: https://777.pmdg.com/introduction/#/lessons/r6Ls0RbaHjTL9YNqEt3Bkalg2sjIj1Tk .. second to none IMO, also as these IRL pilots said in their reviews.
 

Edited Wednesday at 01:27 PM by lwt1971

[LRBS 996]

3 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

You likely won't find a line pilot anywhere that prefers the Boeing EFB to a tablet.  

The reality is that there is no advantage to the built-in EFB; that list posted earlier is all simply opinions.  

The main advantage of the tablet is simple - the airline can control it, what's on it, and what they want it to do.  As just one example, we use an app on our iPads to calculate and track holdover times for de-icing.  This is an app built in-house by the airline, tailored to our operation, types of fluid and deicing techniques etc.  We didn't have to buy it from Boeing, pay them to install it on their devices in our airplanes etc... Our own IT team simply built it and pushed it to the pilot iPads.  It just showed up one day, ready to go.  It is updated every year and whenever else necessary, all automatically. 

We build and maintain our own release app as well, that incorporates release and flight plan data with weather and notams, relevant company memos, performance data, crew info and flight/duty time tracking and notification, up to the second MX status... And more being added all the time.

We have probably a dozen tailored apps like this, for things unique to our operation.  Most airlines do.  None of this can be done with the built in EFB.

Conversely, there's nothing that can be done with the built in device that cannot be done with a tablet.  Choices are always good but from PMDG 's standpoint, it's understandable that they'll only want to deal with maintaining one version of an EFB, and it's understandable which one they chose... And ironically, for the same reason as in real life - an iPad is infinitely scalable in terms of what you can realistically make it do.

 

Andrew,  would like to respectfully disagree with that. I can assure you that when you live out of a suitcase, traveling from country to country for a week or more, it will change your way of thinking. Domestic and international travel are completely different experiences.

 

Now, considering that we have the option to carry iPads with customized apps for the operation, it's important to note that there is no additional software loaded beyond what is already on the EFB. I also have a crew duty scheduler app to ensure that I stay compliant with regulations.

 

Our experience with the IT team updating iPads or other sorts of tablets shows some problems when being international and facing internet or phone connections vs ACARS, Satcom, etc. available on the airplane.

 

I can only speak only of what we have on the B748 or A388. Of course, in our days everybody is on iPhones or iPads, so it is convenient.

When I'm flying for at least 16 hours, yes I prefer to play games on my iPad. Also, I'm the kind of person who starts work in the briefing room at the airport, no matter what needs to be done. If we have enough time to go through all the requirements in the briefing room, that's great. If not, they will need to make adjustments, instead of us using iPads on our own time. I see a lot of people doing that, and it's not right.

 

That's why some love iPads vs EFB and vice-versa. Me, personally, I just care to travel light.

[Krakin 6,188]

2 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

Oh you mean the pitch issue that PMDG fixed before release with the help of Blackbox711? 🙂 .. V1-Simulations, 320 Sim Pilot (777 & 787 rated), Into The Blue Simulations are all lauding the handling and flight dynamics of the PMDG 777 including its control laws, I think I'll go by their expert takes (especially since they are true professionals, and give unbiased no-nonsense takes on various sims and add-on products).

And the usual depth of the overall aircraft simulation, systems, etc we've come to expect from PMDG: https://777.pmdg.com/introduction/#/lessons/r6Ls0RbaHjTL9YNqEt3Bkalg2sjIj1Tk .. second to none IMO, also as these IRL pilots said in their reviews.
 

The feeeeel of flight king, strikes again! lol

[jcomm 6,137]

1 hour ago, Krakin said:

The feeeeel of flight king, strikes again! lol

Yeah, BlackBox711 right - you're referring to him for sure not me, I do not fly airliners IRL, but, btw I do understand the meaning of stuff like FBW Laws, Airbus & Boeing ...

But the reference to - "it doesn't feel right " - it's not from me, who don't even own either the PMDG or the FF 777, but it surely helped me decide which one to buy first...:

https://youtu.be/JAUNKauQslQ?t=5764

Real 737 Pilot LIVE | Flying the PMDG 777-300ER in Microsoft Flight Simulator (youtube.com)

https://youtu.be/JAUNKauQslQ?t=5678

Now, do you have 44 years of flying real aircraft Krakin? Just because I do have, not airliners but gliders, which, btw, professional pilots know well how important are in terms of gaining particular insight into the "Principles of Flight", decision making in terms of flight planning, etc... So, please, instead of throwing those comments, have some consideration... 

Edited Wednesday at 05:38 PM by jcomm

[JetCat 144]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:47 AM, Farlis said:

It's like whishing for a 777 with steam gauges.

I liked the three backup steam gauges and the cozy brown carpet, and hope PMDG will make these optional. 🙂

[lwt1971 7,995]

44 minutes ago, jcomm said:

Yeah, BlackBox711 right - you're referring to him for sure not me, I do not fly airliners IRL, but, btw I do understand the meaning of stuff like FBW Laws, Airbus & Boeing ...

But the reference to - "it doesn't feel right " - it's not from me, who don't even own either the PMDG or the FF 777, but it surely helped me decide which one to buy first...:

That's great that it helped you decide what to buy first.. but specifically about the PMDG 777, you do realize that the bug that Blackbox711 and others saw PMDG managed to fix before their release yesterday right? They did so with Blackbox711's help as RSR himself said and thanked Blackbox711 for: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/645655-pmdg-777-released/?do=findComment&comment=5116967

Apart from this specific bug, do you have other examples where these IRL pilots have said anything about "not feeling right" or issues with control laws? Like I mentioned above and in other reviews by the IRL airliner and 777 pilots, they've only had great things to say about the PMDG flight dynamics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Edited Wednesday at 05:21 PM by lwt1971

[jcomm 6,137]

1 hour ago, lwt1971 said:

That's great that it helped you decide what to buy first.. but specifically about the PMDG 777, you do realize that the bug that Blackbox711 and others saw PMDG managed to fix before their release yesterday right? They did so with Blackbox711's help as RSR himself said and thanked Blackbox711 for: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/645655-pmdg-777-released/?do=findComment&comment=5116967

Apart from this specific bug, do you have other examples where these IRL pilots have said anything about "not feeling right" or issues with control laws? Like I mentioned above and in other reviews by the IRL airliner and 777 pilots, they've only had great things to say about the PMDG flight dynamics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

No, I wasn't aware that the bug had been already accepted AND fixed before release, specially because one of the videos I linked above is from yesterday, so that surely was a prompt fix, and kudos to PMDG for the fast update!

I haven't been able to watch many more videos since I am on holidays and with limited access to the net, but I'll keep following everything I can find regarding both the FF and the PMDG.

Thank you for the information about the fix!

Great !

LATE EDIT: And indeed this other video does show it was fixes, and I DO LIKE THE WAY it handles even in a variable wind getting into around 15knot effective x-wind!  I was probably tricked by not knowing it was so promptly fixed by PMDG (well, not their usual speed responding to bugs...) !!! 

Great behaviour as far as I can see here:

and yet another by BlackBox711 himself, praising the feel of the FBW post-release:

MSFS PMDG 777-300ER | London Heathrow/EGLL to Vienna/LOWW | VATSIM CPDLC (youtube.com)

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:05 PM by jcomm

[Stearmandriver 2,343]

7 hours ago, LRBS said:

Andrew,  would like to respectfully disagree with that. I can assure you that when you live out of a suitcase, traveling from country to country for a week or more, it will change your way of thinking. Domestic and international travel are completely different experiences.

 

Now, considering that we have the option to carry iPads with customized apps for the operation, it's important to note that there is no additional software loaded beyond what is already on the EFB. I also have a crew duty scheduler app to ensure that I stay compliant with regulations.

 

Our experience with the IT team updating iPads or other sorts of tablets shows some problems when being international and facing internet or phone connections vs ACARS, Satcom, etc. available on the airplane.

 

I can only speak only of what we have on the B748 or A388. Of course, in our days everybody is on iPhones or iPads, so it is convenient.

When I'm flying for at least 16 hours, yes I prefer to play games on my iPad. Also, I'm the kind of person who starts work in the briefing room at the airport, no matter what needs to be done. If we have enough time to go through all the requirements in the briefing room, that's great. If not, they will need to make adjustments, instead of us using iPads on our own time. I see a lot of people doing that, and it's not right.

 

That's why some love iPads vs EFB and vice-versa. Me, personally, I just care to travel light.

I'm not sure why you think I haven't lived that way.  (To my mind it was a terrible lifestyle.). But I still see what you're saying as opinions.  Charging and Internet problems?  Nothing a universal adapter and the right data plan wouldn't make a non-event, and needed for the built in device anyway. 

 Just because you guys don't have additional software on your EFBs doesn't mean that there isn't a lot of potentially useful software that could be integrated, and the airline having their own ability to do it is a heck of an advantage.  I can't imagine a large corporate IT department having trouble developing an iPad app, that just doesn't make sense. 

Your final line, about traveling lightly, is the very best reason to prefer the iPad - it eliminates so much paper, and keeps an almost unlimited number of resources in one place, and with you vs in the plane.  You can continue to walk to the resource center to use it all if you wish, but there's no need or advantage to doing that, not when you've got everything you'll use in one place.

[lwt1971 7,995]

4 hours ago, jcomm said:

No, I wasn't aware that the bug had been already accepted AND fixed before release, specially because one of the videos I linked above is from yesterday, so that surely was a prompt fix, and kudos to PMDG for the fast update!

.....

LATE EDIT: And indeed this other video does show it was fixes, and I DO LIKE THE WAY it handles even in a variable wind getting into around 15knot effective x-wind!  I was probably tricked by not knowing it was so promptly fixed by PMDG (well, not their usual speed responding to bugs...) !!! 

Great behaviour as far as I can see here:

and yet another by BlackBox711 himself, praising the feel of the FBW post-release:

MSFS PMDG 777-300ER | London Heathrow/EGLL to Vienna/LOWW | VATSIM CPDLC (youtube.com)

 

Cool. Good to see Blackbox711 and V1-Simulations praising the handling.
 

[Aglos77 203]

5 hours ago, lwt1971 said:

That's great that it helped you decide what to buy first.. but specifically about the PMDG 777, you do realize that the bug that Blackbox711 and others saw PMDG managed to fix before their release yesterday right? They did so with Blackbox711's help as RSR himself said and thanked Blackbox711 for: https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/645655-pmdg-777-released/?do=findComment&comment=5116967

Apart from this specific bug, do you have other examples where these IRL pilots have said anything about "not feeling right" or issues with control laws? Like I mentioned above and in other reviews by the IRL airliner and 777 pilots, they've only had great things to say about the PMDG flight dynamics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

I keep remembering how good most youtubers pilots and non pilots were at putting the first versions of Fénix and then it turned out months later that it required a lot of work then came v2, over the weeks and months we will see how well finished the 777 is and especially how PMDG is doing now that they have all your money. I'm still waiting for them to give some love to DC6 to see if now that they've made some money they remember it a bit. 

Edited Wednesday at 11:06 PM by Aglos77

[jcomm 6,137]

-- discard... not PMDG 777 related... ---

 

 

Edited Thursday at 08:58 AM by jcomm

[Treetops45 1,087]

I have a query regarding 2 aspects of the PMDG 777's operation - can the VNAV be set up with a profile that the aircraft will follow, for say, a 10 hour flight,

& the same query re a speed profile?

T45

[g-liner 408]

Has anyone given the LNAV 2 a good investigation? How are things like RNP ar approaches using lnav and vnav and also on approach logic? 

[g-liner 408]

On 6/26/2024 at 10:53 AM, Stearmandriver said:

You likely won't find a line pilot anywhere that prefers the Boeing EFB to a tablet.  

The reality is that there is no advantage to the built-in EFB; that list posted earlier is all simply opinions.  

The main advantage of the tablet is simple - the airline can control it, what's on it, and what they want it to do.  As just one example, we use an app on our iPads to calculate and track holdover times for de-icing.  This is an app built in-house by the airline, tailored to our operation, types of fluid and deicing techniques etc.  We didn't have to buy it from Boeing, pay them to install it on their devices in our airplanes etc... Our own IT team simply built it and pushed it to the pilot iPads.  It just showed up one day, ready to go.  It is updated every year and whenever else necessary, all automatically. 

We build and maintain our own release app as well, that incorporates release and flight plan data with weather and notams, relevant company memos, performance data, crew info and flight/duty time tracking and notification, up to the second MX status... And more being added all the time.

We have probably a dozen tailored apps like this, for things unique to our operation.  Most airlines do.  None of this can be done with the built in EFB.

Conversely, there's nothing that can be done with the built in device that cannot be done with a tablet.  Choices are always good but from PMDG 's standpoint, it's understandable that they'll only want to deal with maintaining one version of an EFB, and it's understandable which one they chose... And ironically, for the same reason as in real life - an iPad is infinitely scalable in terms of what you can realistically make it do.

 

IRL though it’s not usually an either or situations like it is in sim world though? I like having BOTH  the integrated efb and my iPad then you can have approach charts in the iPad and the star and then the moving map ground charts on the integrated efb for landing etc. 

Perhaps in the sim both aren’t possible due to memory issues or something but not having the integrated efb is a shame imho.