Troubling...

[DD_Arthur 1,129]

10 hours ago, martin-w said:

Currently batteries are lasting between 100,000 and 400,000 miles, and after their life in a car they go on to become "second life batteries" for use in grid storage and home storage. In addition, there are recycling stipulations. From 2027 European cars batteries will be required to have 90% of the materials recovered. 

As I said, there are many myths.

 

https://fullycharged.show/blog/lies-damned-lies-statistics-debunking-electric-car-myths/

“Currently batteries are lasting between 100,000 and 400,000 miles”?

These sort of figures suggest we actually have no idea what kind of battery life will be obtained in real world usage as we simply don’t have enough data yet.

”Second life batteries”?  
“recycling stipulations”?

This sounds great but like our grandiose plans for carbon capture, nothing is actually happening yet. This is more blue sky thinking on the back of yet more fag packets.

It’s easy enough for cheerleading websites to come out with any old guff but the reality is we’re on a familiar path.

We know from independent tests of EV’s that manufacturers range claims are often grossly over estimated - just in the same way that not so long ago fuel economy figures were falsified by the entire European car making industry.

Do we really think claims being made now by the industry and it’s fan club will stand up to extended real world usage?

As to recovering 90 percent of the materials from used batteries?

Considering what it’s going to take to rip this stuff out of our planet to manufacture batteries on this scale I should hope that they can exceed this figure.

However, the devil is in the detail and it’s what sort of polluting processes will be required to ‘recycle’ these batteries and where this will take place that doesn’t seem to be mentioned anywhere.

Lets remind ourselves that in the UK all our domestic waste is now taken away to be put through some sort of ‘recycling’ process. We now also know that a great deal of this recycled material seems to end up dumped on beaches and river banks in West Africa and Turkey.

Shall we talk about fires associated with EV’s and how our emergency services have no real idea how to deal with them yet?

[martin-w 3,315]

11 hours ago, dave2013 said:

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that.  I'm saying that your sources are dishonest, not you.

 

👍 Understood. Nothing wrong with being skeptical.

There are always batteries that fail prematurely, of course, like with any device, but batteries in cars have been around long enough now to have amassed the data. Sorry for the huge number of links, but as you see, its not just a few random dodgy sources. We can go back to the first hybrid Prius cars that were used as taxi's, huge mileage  on original battery.

 

11 hours ago, dave2013 said:

Everyone uses lithium-ion batteries for stuff nowadays and everyone knows from experience that these things degrade especially if they are charged/discharged a lot.  I'd like to see one last 10 years and still have even 50% of its original capacity.

.

Different chemistry to your phone, Dave, and sophisticated BMS's. Car batteries are used differently, too. 

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/tesla-our-batteries-lose-only-12-of-their-range-after-200000-miles/

Quote

Tesla: Our Batteries Lose Only 12% Of Their Range After 200,000 Miles

https://www.energysage.com/electric-vehicles/how-long-do-tesla-car-batteries-last/

• Quote

  A Tesla's battery life is supposed to last between 300,000 and 500,000 miles

  https://insideevs.com/news/723362/tesla-model-s-430000-miles-range-test/

Quote

This Tesla Model S Only Lost 36% Of Its Range After 430,000 Miles

https://insideevs.com/news/667990/2018-tesla-model-3-battery-degradation/

Quote

Owner Reveals 2018 Tesla Model 3 Battery Health After 100K Miles

https://futurism.com/the-byte/tesla-mileage-battery-capacity

https://www.solarreviews.com/blog/how-long-do-tesla-batteries-last

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/threads/average-tesla-battery-degradation-after-200-000-miles-impresses-article.20362/

https://www.notateslaapp.com/tesla-reference/1371/tesla-shows-data-around-battery-life-span-just-12-degradation-after-200-000-miles
 

https://insideevs.com/news/723734/tesla-model-3y-battery-capacity-degradation-200000miles/

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/06/01/100000-miles-on-my-2019-tesla-model-3-where-do-i-stand-now/

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration#age

 

[martin-w 3,315]

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

These sort of figures suggest we actually have no idea what kind of battery life will be obtained in real world usage as we simply don’t have enough data yet.

 

We do, see above. There will always be variation due to different climactic conditions and different ways owners use and treat their batteries.

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

”Second life batteries”?  
“recycling stipulations”?

This sounds great but like our grandiose plans for carbon capture, nothing is actually happening yet. This is more blue sky thinking on the back of yet more fag packets.

 

Nope, in place now. The current EU requirement is that 50% of a batteries weight must be recycled. There's actually tons of money waiting to be made from battery recycling. Second life batteries have been in use for a while, now. 

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

We know from independent tests of EV’s that manufacturers range claims are often grossly over estimated

 

WLTP range is usually (but not always) over the top, and calculated on best case scenarios. But there's plenty of real world range data available. And that real world range data tells us that we are now at a place in battery development where 200 mile plus range is common even in small cars like the VW ID.3. Even the minuscule Fiat 500 with barely enough room for a battery can get a usable range. Mid size EV's, like the BMW i4 and Tesla Model 3, can get a good range. 

Real Range Estimation between 360 - 720 km

City - Cold Weather *	465 km
Highway - Cold Weather *	360 km
Combined - Cold Weather *	415 km

City - Mild Weather *	720 km
Highway - Mild Weather *	480 km
Combined - Mild Weather *	585 km

 

https://ev-database.org/car/1992/Tesla-Model-3-Long-Range-Dual-Motor

 

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Considering what it’s going to take to rip this stuff out of our planet to manufacture batteries on this scale I should hope that they can exceed this figure.

We are already ripping  more out of the ground to manufacture ICE cars and the fuel they run on throughout their lifetimes. 

 

10 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Shall we talk about fires associated with EV’s and how our emergency services have no real idea how to deal with them yet?

 

Per capita, hybrid cars catch fire the most, with 3,475 per 100,000. ICE cars next with 1,530. BEV's with only 25. EV fires are harder to put out, 3 hours or so, compared with  to one hour for a petrol car. Given that most new Tesla's now have BYD LFP blade batteries that are resistant to fire, its not really a long term problem. See video below.

 

Quote

Kelly Blue Book reported on findings from a study that shows EV are actually less likely to cause or be involved in fires than gasoline-powered or hybrid vehicles.¹ Data from the National Transportation Safety Board showed that EVs were involved in approximately 25 fires for every 100,000 sold.  Comparatively, approximately 1,530 gasoline-powered vehicles and 3,475 hybrid vehicles were involved in fires for every 100,000 sold. ICE cars next with 1,530. BEV's with only 25. 

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/environment-energy-coordination/climate-matters/EV-less-fire-risk

https://fullycharged.show/blog/lies-damned-lies-statistics-debunking-electric-car-myths/

 

 

Edited June 29 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,315]

21 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Smaller cars = smaller batteries = less range.

 

Depends on the range you need. The  ID.3, which I think is smaller than your old Civic, has a real world range in excess of 200 miles. Model 3, which is mid sized is 310 miles on average.

 

 

Edited June 29 by martin-w

[Ray Proudfoot 9,165]

2 hours ago, martin-w said:

Depends on the range you need. The  ID.3, which I think is smaller than your old Civic, has a real world range in excess of 200 miles. Model 3, which is mid sized is 310 miles on average.

I’m highly sceptical of these ranges. Those are probably in the summer, not raining and no heating or lights required. Change to winter with heating, wipers, side and possibly headlights and what would be the range then? Possibly 50%. That’s going to work well isn’t it?

There is a market for EVs. Local short trips. Just like milk floats. Remember those?

For anything more than 150-200 miles away I’d only consider a hybrid.

[martin-w 3,315]

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I’m highly sceptical of these ranges. Those are probably in the summer, not raining and no heating or lights required. Change to winter with heating, wipers, side and possibly headlights and what would be the range then? Possibly 50%.

 

I posted the range of the Model 3 long range, above, in cold weather and warm weather. No, not 50%. 

Gas cars lose range too, in cold weather. 15% - 33 %.

 

 

Quote

Cars have much better thermal management systems than your smartphone to protect the battery from the worst of extreme conditions, but you’ll still see a reduction in range.

Studies also show that once you hit freezing, the impact on electric car range is around 10 to 20%. That means for a car with 200 miles range on a nice day, on a frozen winter morning you’re more likely to get 160 miles.

That’s still plenty of mileage to do the average daily commute many times over – and one of the reasons that one of the biggest markets for EVs is Norway, where average daily temperatures in the winter are sub-zero.

https://www.gridserve.com/2023/11/27/how-much-range-do-electric-cars-lose-in-the-cold-and-why/#:~:text=Studies also show that once,likely to get 160 miles.

 

4 hours ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

For anything more than 150-200 miles away I’d only consider a hybrid

 

How often do you do long trips? Average UK trip is 8.1 miles.  80% of all EV charging is at home. 

Long distance trips in an EV are commonplace. There are plenty of charging stations, you know. I would imagine you need to stop for food and a tinkle in the boys room, that's when you charge? 😁

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29 by martin-w

[Ray Proudfoot 9,165]

12 minutes ago, martin-w said:

I posted the range of the Model 3 long range, above, in cold weather and warm weather. No, not 50%. 

Gas cars lose range too, in cold weather. 15% - 33 %.

What about cold wet and dark conditions? Worst case scenario if you like.

What’s a gas car?

13 minutes ago, martin-w said:

How often do you do long trips? Average UK trip is 8.1 miles.  80% of all EV charging is at home. 

Long distance trips in an EV are commonplace. There are plenty of charging stations, you know. I would imagine you need to stop for food and a tinkle in the boys room, that's when you charge? 😁

I don’t want to drive any automatic car. Full stop. It’s not driving any more. It’s just pointing it in the direction you want to go. Most of my motoring is up to 40 miles. Still wouldn’t have one if you paid me.

[martin-w 3,315]

On 6/28/2024 at 2:23 PM, charliearon said:

I'm waiting for Toyota to come out with their long range battery.  They were touting 600 mile range.

 

Current longest range is the Lucid Air with 410 miles.

Nio have already begun mass production of their semi-solid state battery. 665 mile range during real world testing. 

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/04/nio-et7-with-semi-solid-state-batteries-drives-665-miles-in-real-world-test/

Edited June 29 by martin-w

[martin-w 3,315]

3 minutes ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

I don’t want to drive any automatic car. Full stop. It’s not driving any more. It’s just pointing it in the direction you want to go. Most of my motoring is up to 40 miles. Still wouldn’t have one if you paid me.

 

Would certainly be a lot cheaper for you if you only do 40 milers, and I recall you have solar panels on your roof. But you are perfectly entitled to feel that way, Ray. 👍

I've not driven many automatics. A I briefly had an automatic Volvo once that I disliked, it had a ridiculous delay after you put your foot down, before you got any power, and no, it wasn't turbo lag. Apparently it was a feature of this particular torque convertor automatic transmission. I disliked it with a vengeance. I've driven a few Tesla's, and liked the experience, only round the block, mind you. I hired an automatic once to pick my son and his stuff up from University, that was a CVH automatic, which I really liked.

You can change gear yourself in a duel clutch auto, you know, with the flappy paddles? 

 

I wouldn't call this automatic, below, "just point in the direction".

 

 

 

[Ray Proudfoot 9,165]

47 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Would certainly be a lot cheaper for you if you only do 40 milers, and I recall you have solar panels on your roof. But you are perfectly entitled to feel that way, Ray. 👍

Not sure how it could be cheaper when I’d have to fork out thousands to buy one. I’d never get my money back even if petrol was 10GBP a litre.

Over and out. 👍

[martin-w 3,315]

1 hour ago, Ray Proudfoot said:

Not sure how it could be cheaper when I’d have to fork out thousands to buy one. I’d never get my money back even if petrol was 10GBP a litre.

Over and out. 👍

 

Obviously not "now" in terms of initial purchase price. But you said "never" so even if you could afford the purchase you wouldn't and despite longer term saving as a result of reduced running costs. Can't remember how big you said your solar array was or if you had a battery.

Not a problem, your opinion and choice is respected.

Edited June 29 by martin-w

[ViperPilot 96]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:31 PM, TuFun said:

I use to live on a street in San Jose, CA that you can only park on one side due to being narrow although it was two way traffic.

There is also a sign no parking on this day once a week for street cleaners.  Cars will be towed if not removed that day.

Live across the street from a School. The School is in use all year round, not much Parking for the residents so most of us either park in the garage out back or on the driveways along the Alley. Street parking because of the school is limited to one Hour from 8AM to 6PM M-F. $50 Ticket for Violations. We also have Street Sweeping 2nd Tuesday of every month April-November. Again, $50 for Violation.

[Fielder 3,907]

I live in the United States. Our family does not park any vehicle on the curb, they go in the garage. America is a melting pot, and not a homogeneous culture. Crime and violence in America is not the same as in Europe. That's why many of our laws and practices must be very different from the more civilized societies.

 

[Ray Proudfoot 9,165]

16 minutes ago, martin-w said:

Can't remember how big you said your solar array was or if you had a battery.

It’s a 4KwH array. 16 * 250w panels. Installed in March 2014 a year after I retired so able to use electricity generated during daytime when I’m at home. Got the idea from Pete Dowson. No battery, too expensive.