Please help with approach to DFW

[Guest mkuebeler]

There really has to be something about the Bonham STAR into DFW that Radar Contact cannot handle properly. I flew two flights into DFW this weekend using the Bonham STAR, and both times I got the same screwy approach vectors. Both times winds had traffic landing north. I am generating the flight plans using FSBuild 2.1. Here is the routing for today's flight:KPIT.ACG225.BURGS..HVQ.J6.LIT.BYP4.KDFWThis was one of FSBuild's stored routes.I modified this flight plan to conform to the current BYP5 STAR, which only differs in the final checkpoint before KDFW. BYP4 has turbojets landing north fly from STONZ direct to ELLER, while BYP5 changes ELLER to DIRKK, which is about 20nm further south. I am attaching a screen shot of the flight analysis to show what happens. ATC should have you cross LEYMN at 11000, but I was only cleared down to 18000, and did not get cleared to 10000 until about 30nm from DIRKK and was told to expect 35L. Near DIRKK I get a vector to 275 and d/m 6000, immediately followed by instructions d/m 4100 and turn right to 325, which if I had been much further east would have been the correct heading to intercept the localizer. Unfortunately I quickly ended well west of the localizer, and I finally took it upon myself to turn right to intercept the localizer. Of course, in the process I'm flying through the planes landing on 36R.I also flew two flights out of DFW (one to Cincinatti, one to Pittsburg), and the ATC for both of these flights was just fine. I have not yet flown into DFW using another STAR. A few weeks back I flew the BYP4 STAR for landing south, basically got sent all the way down to ELLER before being turned back north to near LEYMN at which point I was given a proper vector to intercept the 17C localizer. I was hoping the winds would favor landing south to see if it would happen again, but they didn't. Please let me know if I can provide any other information. Radar Contact is starting to grow on me, but these approaches into DFW are frankly driving me nuts.Mark Kuebelerhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/87246.jpg

[jd 57]

technically, the star ends as soon as you contact approach. star's purpose is to aggregate arrivals.if you have a specific approach you want to fly, then choose an iap approach on the rc menu, and fly the approach the way it is diagramed. but understand, rc is not aware of what the approach looks like. you are on your own. 7 miles out, you will be told to contact tower, and rc will continue as it normally does.there is a whole section in the manual about iap approaches, and how to fly them.jd

[Guest mkuebeler]

>technically, the star ends as soon as you contact approach.>star's purpose is to aggregate arrivals.Yes, but when is contacting approach supposed to happen in terms of the flight plan checkpoints? Is it based on distance from airport, or is it some function of the checkpoints prior to the final destination? I still don't think you quite understand the problem I'm having. I am not trying to fly a full IAP, and did not request one. I'm flying the flight plan that FSBuild generated, and expecting to get vectors to final from approach. However, RC seems to want to take me right down to that last checkpoint (DIRKK) before before starting to consider how it's going vector me in, even if it makes zero sense in terms of where it ultimately wants me to land. Now, if this was based on distance I would think I'd be getting the hand-off to approach somewhere around LEYMN, regardless of the remaining checkpoints in the flight plan, possibly even before that since LEYMN is already inside the Class B. So, if I delete the two checkpoints between LEYMN and KDFW, do you think it would work as expected? Is there a rule of thumb as to where the last checkpoint prior to the destination airport should be placed? I looked through the manual but did not find any guidance. This particular STAR may make perfect sense in the real world, and FSBuild is just being accurate with respect to the checkpoints it generates, but I get the impression it is throwing your program's logic for a loop. I would encourage you to load up that flight plan and fly it yourself.I'll let you know how the modified flight plan works.Mark Kuebeler

[jd 57]

where do you contact approach?try deleting the checkpoints as you describe, and see what happens.traditionally, you choose the last checkpoint as close to the field as possible. you really don't need any checkpoints between the field, and a 40 mile radius of the field.if you have 40-50 miles of legs, inside the 40 mile radius, it could be fouling up the approach logic. so make the last checkpoint dfw (i think that is the vor), and delete anything between it and about 40 miles outjd

[Guest mkuebeler]

Yes, I think that definitely did the trick! I flew the modified BYP STAR with the last leg from LEYMN direct to KDFW, about 26nm. This time I was cleared down to 10000 with the "down in 30 miles" restriction at about 12nm from, which comes very close to the published crossing restriction of 11,000 at LEYMN. Hand-off to Approach came right at 40nm out, with sensible vectors to the 13R ILS, which I have never gotten from FS9 ATC (winds were 110, FS9 had 17/18's as active), so that was a nice little bonus. I will pay more attention to the flight plans coming out of FSBuild from now on.Mark Kuebeler

[Guest Kultsound]

Just adding a bit to the discussion. One of my favorite routes is Rome LIRF to Geneva LSGG. Using a standard departure north of Rome it takes you over the Alps and into Geneva from the south. This is a prime example of where you have to use the NOTAMS function and fly on your own discretion through the mountains or it will vector straight into one... On approach to RWY5 at LSGG, RC correctly vectors you according to published approach procedures but leaves you to intercept localiser about 3000 feet too high. Again, looking at the published STAR for Geneva the approach until base leg is actually at 7000/6000 feet but leaving it to RC while flying NOTAM leaves you overshooting the approach. It becomes even more tricky because the base leg for RWY 5 brings you straight over a narrow ridge which you must clear by 1000 feet according to local rules.My flighplans are also produced by FSBuild but I always double check it with "reality" and fly NOTAM and IAP if necessary.Looking forward to RC4 so that it can deal with all that other AI traffic that overtakes you on the final and messes life up :)//Peter

[jd 57]

ahhh, yes, i forgot about mentioning that feature, planes behind you, will be slowed so they won't overtake it. also slower planes in front of you will be climbed out of the wayjd

[ConstVoid 112]

It just gets better and better!