Why so few verbal instructions?

[Guest cliff]

ATC instructions are normal until after takeoff.However once airborne I'm finding that I have to follow the text box heading instructions rather than being told by ATC which headings to follow.Is this correct?Cliff

[jd 57]

atc is not there to tell you how to get where you are coming from to where you are going. that is why you filed a flight plan. you know how to get there.of course if you want more atc instructions, start doing things wrong. don't hold altitude, change headings erratically, go faster than 250 below 10000, etc.one role of atc, is to keep you from hitting the other guy, keep the traffic flowing, handle emergencies, etc.jd

[Guest cliff]

Thanks JD. I'd posed the query as I had thought ATC would route me verbally to the path of the Flight Plan after taking off rather than direct me to the Waypoints in text.(I normally fly the PMDG 737-700 and the path with the relevant Waypoints shown is by the FMC) By following waypoints without taking other traffic into account must surely be dangerous?Or do those text Waypoints take other traffic into account?Cliff

[ConstVoid 112]

Cliff,It sounds like you are flying a Departure Procedure - ie your first waypoint is within about 30 miles of your departure airport, or you've selected flexible departure procedure in the RC options. If you're flying a DP, RC assumes you know what you're doing and won't give you vectors.If you're not flying a DP, RC will vector you after take-off for a while to get you roughly on the right course, and then you'll be given the instruction 'resume own navigation'. After that, as in real life, navigating from one waypoint to the next is your own responsibility, although RC will step in an 'remind' you if you're too far off course.The textual waypoints in the Advdisp display are a "poor man's GPS". They give you an indication where the next waypoint is, but they're not instructions from ATC. They don't take into account any vectors for traffic, they just tell you how to get to the next waypoint in the absence of any other instruction from ATC.Ian

[Guest cliff]

I understand your explanation Ian and I thank you for the clarity of your reply. May I ask you three questions?1.How do I inform ATC that I want to fly a Departure Procedure?2.How do I inform ATC that I don't want to fly a DP?2.What is normal or, putting it another way, which departure method should I adopt for my flights?Regards,Cliff

[ConstVoid 112]

Hi Cliff,The answer to 1 and 2 are related, but opposite. In RC3 (rc4 may be different, but we'll have to wait to find out:) ), if your first waypoint is within about 30 miles of the airport RC will assume that you want a departure procedure. The other way to request a DP is to check 'Flexible Dep Proc' in the 'Controller Info' page of RC.If the first waypoint is greater than 30 miles away and 'Flexible Dep Proc' is not checked, RC will not assume a DP and you'll get vectors to put you on course.The answer to 3 is laregely a matter of preference. As above, if you want to force RC to use one, you can, but mostly I just take what comes out of the flight planner I use (FSBuild). If that chooses a close first waypoint I'll fly the DP, otherwise I'll fly the vectors. Others will certainly have different opinions, and will say DPs are generally used in real life, so they'll always use them.Ian

[Guest cliff]

That's helpful Ian and I've learned somthing today so thank you again.With my regards,Cliff

[ronzie 21]

Just a clarification:DPs used to be called SIDs for Standard Instrument Departure. They are included in many external flight plan program databases.Here's a link to an FAA one:http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0501/00264MINNEAPOLIS.PDFand a simpler one:http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0501/00264ORSKY.PDFIn the second one followed by GA and low altitude regionals, the first waypoint, RUMLE ( only 30 or less from the airport, the 33 is the DME from the VOR GEP in the opposite direction) will be at or within 30 miles and you should not get vectors. If you want vectors choose ORSKY as the first.The first example is for high altitude departures basicly joining jet routes showing long range directs to VORs. You will get vectors here and when told to resume own nav you should be high enough to receive them.To get these US plates for STARS, DPs, and IAPs the site is www.naco.faa.gove, downloads, TERPS, click the TERP link which will bring you to a search page. You can search by location or airport ID (without the "K"). That will give you a list of all plates for that airport in PDF (Acrobat format, free reader available). Click on the PDF just to the right of the plate you want.Here is another one, mostly low level to Fargo where the first waypoint I believe is just outside the 30 nm range on the outbound radial of GEP.This all being said, for high density areas I would attempt to set my first wayoint outside the 30 nm. range to get vectors so to allow for traffic flow seperation is maintained (it will be better in version 4).Also check out the thread here on FLEX DP vs NOTAM departure options.I use a freeware program called NAV 3.1 to create plans. It is intended for FS2K2 but the plans after exporting can be copied to your data folder for FS9. I eith load a SID (DP) in the database and then delete unwanted waypoints or just load the pertinent waypoints directly.The use of FS Build or another external planner along with some charts goes far beyound the FS9 planner in accomplishing creating real routes.I use plates from the Simplates 2004 collection which also includes additional airport info especially Preferred Routes "encouraged" by the FAA. I bring this up because these routes often include enroute based on the last waypoint of a DP to the first waypoint of a STAR as part of a plan. There are low and high altitude preferred routes as well as determined by aircraft performance from GA to jets.While I digressed from the original topic I thought a discussion of the whole picture might present reasons for the various DP choices you might wish to make based on aircraft and environment.

[Guest cliff]

I didn't realise that a SID and a DP are one an the same thing. The previous explanations now become even clearer.But you introduce another subject that I'd appreciate knowing more about.Having read complimentary comments about FSBuild I tried it only to return to my favourite FS Navigator after realising that a downloaded patch would allow it to export my Flight Plans to PMDG 737's.Do you have an opinion as to which is better and, if so, could you tell me why you think that way?Cliff

[ronzie 21]

I'm afraid I don't use either although I do have the freeware version 1.x of FS Build which I try now and then. I use NAV 3.1 and charts as explained earlier. I am a former small aircraft pilot with a commercial rating from before GPS days. I create flightplans by selecting waypoints and adding them. I do import the plan into a GPS (Reality-XP Apollo 50) and RC3.1 but not FS9.I emulate regional and GA flying jets and props, use Reality-XP avionics, and as such don't need nor want a moving map module which is what FS Nav uses. I prefer gauges built into panels. In the future Reality-XP has an FMC on their wish list that would be a retrofit for commuters such as the Saab 340B.If you use FMCs and they require a proprietary import format for a flight plan, then I guess you would have to go with a product that supports it or enter your waypoints manually. Those aircraft products that include FMCs may include their own database that includes DPs and STARS so manulally entering a few enroute waypoints may not be that bad. These products would then hopefully export an FS format .pln file that RC can read.As far as the comparison you request, that is best left for others than myself.

[ronzie 21]

Cliff:Didn't notice you were from Spain and apologize for the US centric reply on the charts. Perhaps you have resources there if you do local flying.In a recent Computer Pilot article they showed a DP for Rome but it was a Jeppeson chart. They do sell CD collections but are expensive. When I get home I'll see if any NIMA DPs are in the Simplates collection for your area.

[Guest cliff]

I used to be what was then termed a "Private Pilot" many moons ago in Cape Town, South Africa. In those days GPS wasn't even a twinkle in anybody's eye.Piper Cubs, Piper Cruisers, Chipmonks and Tiger moths were my craft of choice. With the Tiger way ahead of the others.Now I'm retired in Spain and trying to get to grips with the FMC in the PMDG 737's as well as Radar Contact and I spend most of the flying time either in Europe or South Africa.I haven't yet fully grasped the different Radar Contact options for landing but I'll get there eventually. If you haven't used the PMDG 737 then do yourself a favour and try it. Or, even better, wait till they release their new PMDG 747's. They will most likely be at the cutting edge of Flight Simulation aircraft.Cliff

[ronzie 21]

Quite a few airports in Spain in Simplates 2004 but only three in South Africa - Capetown, Durgan, Waterkloof. Arrivals and departures as appropriate. I have the bundle which includes the three update packs.Just an FYI.www.dauntless-soft.com is their site. They should have a list of what's included.As far as RC 3.1, in the options page I always have the Interact With AI check so it calls FS AI traffic alerts. On the controller page I always use NOTAMS so I can follow plate altitudes. I have a TCAS gauge, either the one that came with Ultimate Traffic 2 for small GA or the one built into the Reality-XP Jetline series EHSI so NOTAMS allows me to adjust for traffic seperation without complaints from RC ATC.

[Guest cliff]

Those Dauntless CD's look interesting but my FS Nav includes most of the SID's and STARs that my flights require. Your choice of settings also looks interesting and I'll try them but the PMDG 737 includes TCAS and condequently I have no need for an add-on gauge.Have a great day!Regards,Cliff

[Guest Kultsound]

I use FSBuild and it's actually much more detailed. It gives you things like great-circle routes if flying long-haul, step-climbs and much more... It exports to the NG, but also to a range of other stuff, including Radar Contact, FS2004 and the mentioned FS Nav...As far as I know FS Navigator is no more so updates and other features may soon become a problem. Right me if I'm wrong on that ;)In general, FSBuild takes longer to learn and won't produce anything clever without reading the manual but it is far superior to anything else out there once you have understood all the finer details and functions of it...// Peter A. Mankowskihttp://www.mankowski.co.ukhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpg